Poor unit mix hurting varation to the game.

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Gothfather
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Poor unit mix hurting varation to the game.

Post by Gothfather »

i've noticed that playing the campaign game as europe that there is a distinct lack of units as your tech passesd 110. The exception is the multiple versions of infantry at tech level 115 which are almost extacly alike some appear to have NO variation to them. It appears that while there is a whole slew of advanced futureistic technologies to research there are almost no units to take advantage of these techs.

Also I think there is a fundemental flaw in the regional based unit system when there are no fictional units in tehhe everyone catagory so that you have units to build to fill various combat roles in the game. There should be multiple units for each role that anyone can build and there should be fictional units all along the tech level not just one at point x and no improvement.

Or you should say if a region has purchased a unit from another country it owns the design as well. To provide a better increase in unit desity to nations outside the super powers.

There is a distinct lack of the ability of a region to advance to a world leader in technology in the military unless they are part of a former super power. This game is about the current world power stuctures failing and new political and economic power stuctures arising from the ashes. Yet there is no ability to do this if you have a poor unit selection because you choose to start in a region that isnt part of a former super power. Its a major flaw in the game. And there are almost no units in the upper tech levels to overcome this failing as well. The game doest provide even a future tech solution to regionals with poor unit selections. That reduces the viable choices to the game and reduces various regions from being a threat. As Europe I have only one threat and that is russia the middle east and africa has such a poor selection of units compared to me that I can always out do them in any given role.

The current incarnation of the game lacks for "marginal" regions to arise to become world leaders. The game doesnt allow for a china to happen in this game time period like china did in the last half of the 20th century.
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

Thanks for the feedback, but I would challenge some of the statements. With over 2000 units in the game I think we have one of the best unit mixes out there. Since releasing the game we have added close to 100 new units and plan to add more.
Gothfather wrote:i've noticed that playing the campaign game as europe that there is a distinct lack of units as your tech passesd 110.
This is mostly due to time and ideas. It’s easy to look up what units exist in the real world, it is hard to come up with fictional stuff. Plus, the real world units where required for the game, and those took five years to compile.
Gothfather wrote:The exception is the multiple versions of infantry at tech level 115 which are almost extacly alike some appear to have NO variation to them.
Those where added as “first generation” units using the laser technology, only their attack values are the same, the rest of their stats are only similar if the base models they where taken from where similar, so if they are it is no fault of mine.
Gothfather wrote:It appears that while there is a whole slew of advanced futureistic technologies to research there are almost no units to take advantage of these techs.
As mentioned, this is something we are looking to expand on, if you have ideas feel free to go to the “new units” section and post some.
Gothfather wrote:Also I think there is a fundemental flaw in the regional based unit system when there are no fictional units in the everyone catagory so that you have units to build to fill various combat roles in the game. There should be multiple units for each role that anyone can build and there should be fictional units all along the tech level not just one at point x and no improvement.
Limited time is the biggest reason that there are not more of these, but I disagree that there should be one at each tech level. Look at the progression of the M1 Abrams tanks. There where 5 years between the M1 and the M1A1. Also, some things are not likely to be available until the regions get past a certain tech level. You’re not going to see Angola building a tank anytime soon.
Gothfather wrote:Or you should say if a region has purchased a unit from another country it owns the design as well. To provide a better increase in unit desity to nations outside the super powers.
That I disagree with entirely. Iran buys F-14s from the US and suddenly they can build F-14s?!? There are in most cases historical reasons why these countries don’t have much diversity in their military equipment, they have not been building them for years.
Gothfather wrote:There is a distinct lack of the ability of a region to advance to a world leader in technology in the military unless they are part of a former super power.
I’m not convinced that this is unrealistic…
Gothfather wrote: This game is about the current world power stuctures failing and new political and economic power stuctures arising from the ashes….The current incarnation of the game lacks for "marginal" regions to arise to become world leaders. The game doesnt allow for a china to happen in this game time period like china did in the last half of the 20th century.
As mentioned we have full intention of expanding the equipment file, but if you look at games like Panzer General or People’s General, it takes years to flesh out equipment files with far less than our game. It’s just not something that can be done overnight… God knows I’ve tried! ;)
Chris Latour
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Gothfather
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Post by Gothfather »

First off i dont claim there should be a improvement for units at every tech level but along the tech tree there should be improement not just you gain a unit at point x and you never gain any improvements. This is mainly to flesh out the unit mix that all nations can gain access to for beter varation and replayability.

I challenge your assuration that its realistic that currently marginal areas of the world should remain so in regards to military units.

Lets look at china and india. Both nations where non - industrial and technologicly back water nations at the end of the Korean conflict just over 50 years ago. Today they are industrial nations currently undergoing the change from rual to urban population based nations but they are truely industrial nations in the urban centres. Both nations are nuclear powers and both nations have the capasity to design their own advanced military equipment. Yet had this game be made in 1955 it is unlikely that you would make it possible for these nations to rise above their marginal starting points to become major world powers. China is on teh verge of the classification of super power. Thats a perfect example of what should be possible with in this game given the time scale.

Not saying it should be easy to do or the norm with in teh game but any nation that becaome the world leader in technology should be able to gain a unit mix that reflect this. A nation that has teh techological ability to build any give technology should be given the unit mix to reflect this. Does the game say well you've gain nuclear power but since your region has never had any nuclear reactors you are unable to build nuclear power plants? No it doesnt. The same must be given to military units.

Consider the following... with former arms dealing nations like the US, Russia, China and the UK all fractured and no longer powers on the world stage it forces other nations to develope thier OWN weapon platforms. The game lacks this ability. Lacks the ability of using superior tech to overcome short comming is unit desighn desity.

While it is logical that a nation that buys an f-14 does in reality know how to build it, the game fails to provide a reasonable alternative. it doesnt allow for independant designs for other regions in the game doesnt allow for nesseccity to spark inovation in weapon systems. THEREFORE the game should compensate for this by allowing a nation that perviously bought a weapon system to have teh design for it. Given that they can no longer buy weapons from anyone during the early time period of this game as most nations are fractured and in a civil war. And with the world economies supressed so badly there is very little military aid from pervious allies. If there was a unit mix for all nations that allowed for the nations to develope thier own designs (or common designs) to fill needed military roles then there would be no need to allow nations to have said designs simply because have purchase a weapon platform before the games time frame.

The game fails to deal with various issues currently, thats a given and things are being improved another given. However It would be more enjoyable to play a game that had multiple units for every nation in every military role than simply be bound to a false premiss that nations would be able to become world leader or even the worlds most powerful super power given teh setting of teh game. China is a world power on the verge of being a super power and India is on the verge of become a world power. These two nations have done this and have become missle armed nuclear powers. This option should be open to Africa to the middle east to South america. Its proven in these two examples that previously non-industrial nations can arise to challenge other world powers. So it is not impossible or even unlikely that other nations/regions could not do the same given the setting of the game.
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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

Gothfather wrote:First off i dont claim there should be a improvement for units at every tech level but along the tech tree there should be improement not just you gain a unit at point x and you never gain any improvements. This is mainly to flesh out the unit mix that all nations can gain access to for beter varation and replayability.
I don't understand this statement at all, that sounds exactly like what we are doing. Play for example from the Czech Republic you start at tech level 98 with a variety of units in multiple classes available for research. When you reach tech 99, 4 new techs can be researched. At 100, there are 7. Looking at units, at almost every tech level new designs become available

99 – 4 unit designs
101 – 3 unit designs
102 – 6 unit designs
103 – 3 unit designs
104 – 5 unit designs
105 – 1 unit design
106 – 2 unit designs
107 - 3 unit designs
(I stopped looking at this point...)
Gothfather wrote:I challenge your assuration that its realistic that currently marginal areas of the world should remain so in regards to military units.
You missunderstood my assertion, I'm saying it should not change quickly. It should take time for them to develop the technologies needed and indeed, it does.
Gothfather wrote:Lets look at china and india. Both nations where non - industrial and technologicly back water nations at the end of the Korean conflict just over 50 years ago. Today they are industrial nations currently undergoing the change from rual to urban population based nations but they are truely industrial nations in the urban centres. Both nations are nuclear powers and both nations have the capasity to design their own advanced military equipment. Yet had this game be made in 1955 it is unlikely that you would make it possible for these nations to rise above their marginal starting points to become major world powers. China is on teh verge of the classification of super power. Thats a perfect example of what should be possible with in this game given the time scale.
Here I think you missunderstood the timescale. You're talking about a progression of 50 years. The game is designed to cover 3-5 years per scenario, 10-15 max over a campaign. I do not see Nigeria making a tank design anytime between now and 2020 no matter what happens in the world.
Gothfather wrote:Not saying it should be easy to do or the norm with in teh game but any nation that becaome the world leader in technology should be able to gain a unit mix that reflect this. A nation that has teh techological ability to build any give technology should be given the unit mix to reflect this. Does the game say well you've gain nuclear power but since your region has never had any nuclear reactors you are unable to build nuclear power plants? No it doesnt. The same must be given to military units.
You seem to be under the impression that I disagree with you. I don't! I would love to see more units in the game. As I mentioned in my last post, it is not for lack of desire but for lack of time and ideas. You want a new infantry unit that can be built by a region in Angola? Great, is it wheeled or tracked? What size gun? How fast does it go? Turreted? How much fuel? What's its name and designation? Coming up with these things is not that easy but if you have ideas, plenty of others in the community are already submitting theirs.
Gothfather wrote:While it is logical that a nation that buys an f-14 does in reality know how to build it, the game fails to provide a reasonable alternative. it doesnt allow for independant designs for other regions in the game doesnt allow for nesseccity to spark inovation in weapon systems. THEREFORE the game should compensate for this by allowing a nation that perviously bought a weapon system to have teh design for it...
I disagree both in the idea of giving them the design and that we do not provide alternative units. We have a number of world region code units in the game for precisely this reason.
Gothfather wrote:...Given that they can no longer buy weapons from anyone during the early time period of this game as most nations are fractured and in a civil war. And with the world economies supressed so badly there is very little military aid from pervious allies. If there was a unit mix for all nations that allowed for the nations to develope thier own designs (or common designs) to fill needed military roles then there would be no need to allow nations to have said designs simply because have purchase a weapon platform before the games time frame...
You are incorrect, you can buy weapons during the game, you only need to keep your World Market opinion reasonable to get the offers. Playing as Congo I was turning offers away because I was getting so many. We have even set it so that regions get offered units from countries they would have previously purhcased from. Most African countries are offered French units. Costa Rica and Oman are offered South African units. Denmark is offered German units (unless in Europe where Germany is an opposing region). The only place we are really lacking in fictional units is the naval side.
Gothfather wrote:The game fails to deal with various issues currently, thats a given and things are being improved another given. However It would be more enjoyable to play a game that had multiple units for every nation in every military role than simply be bound to a false premiss that nations would be able to become world leader or even the worlds most powerful super power given teh setting of teh game. China is a world power on the verge of being a super power and India is on the verge of become a world power. These two nations have done this and have become missle armed nuclear powers. This option should be open to Africa to the middle east to South america...
Again, these countries have done this over a much longer period of time than the game simulates. The economic model can't really go that long, having fictional units for that time period would be nice but is not there yet. I'm not sure what more we can offer, I've already stated we plan to continue to expand the equipment file, and no matter how many arguments you present for it being “unrealistic” that doesn't solve the problem that it just takes time.
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Il Duce
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pragmatism

Post by Il Duce »

...Couldn't help adding a comment regarding the variety of units.

This item appears mostly in the defense topic [where I assume this thread will be moved]. Please keep in mind that the developers have a large list of things to do in addition to adding unit variety. I am sympathetic to your idea that in speculative history it would be interesting to see an 'unexpected' region rise to world-power class, and there is already some allowance for this in the techs [although it is a challenge to effect it]. Remember, many of us are still waiting for covert ops and diplomacy to mature.

As indicated, while there are many lengthy debates about the relative virtues of specific units, it seems that in practice, many longer-term players actually end up building a rather specific list of units that offer [in game terms] cost-effectiveness in terms of build-time and versatility regardless of scenario or campaign origination. For instance, most players will build a significant number of 'light infantry' and 'engineer' units, which are essentially tech-level independent and useful across campaign progression.

My own preference is that the developers balance the time that it takes to maintain and update the unit universe with other efforts that make the game ultimately more playable [such as tuning the AI's and improving the econ internals]. This is basically why you will typically get a response of 'give us a spec for unit and we will add it,' but not much in terms of, 'O.K. we'll go dream one up.'
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously [but otherwise, they do not worry and are happy].
geminif4ucorsair
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Re: (forthcoming) Indian units

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

Some of the issues here I understand and most I concur with Bathagor.
While I yet to play India in a long-term campaign...fighting in the Amazon at the moment with our experienced Venezuelan ground forces....
there are some improvements in India and China coming.

While Update4 will post maybe tonight...there are a host of new NAVAL and AIR units for both China and India in-house and scheduled for inclusion. THat would likely be Update5...at the present rate, that means about six months or less.

Included in Indian units are: @ 50 lines of new units & updates...
* CV Vikramaditya (ex-Adm. Gorshkov)
* Vikrant ADS CV (changes)
* Gugarat LPH - 2009
* Gugarat CVH (VSTOL) - 2010
* Bharat CV - 2015
* Agra CVN - 2020
* Kashmir CG - 2019
* Rajput Upgrade DDG - 2004
* Delhi Upgrade DDG - 2004
* Tamil Nadu DDG - 2015
* Mumbai DDG - 2021
* Nilgiri FF - 1967
* Nilgiri Upgrade - 2004
* Godavari Upgrade FFG - 2004
* Bramaputra (Proj. 16A) FFG - 1989
* Talwar (Proj. 11356) FFG - 1999
* Talwar Batch III FFG - 2012
* Shivalik (Proj. 17) FFG - 2002
* Sukanya OPV - 1987
* Prabal PGG - 2000
* Kora PGG - 1990
* Vish (Proj. 28) - 2009
* Vikram OPV - 1981
* Samar OPV - 1990
* Vijay OPV - 2017
* Abhay PGM - 1990
* Jija Bai PC - 1980
* Priyadarshini PC - 1990
* Sarojini Naidu PC - 2001
* Project 2000 PC - 2004
* Fatepur Sikri LPD - 2009

Other addition in naval aviation include:

* Mig-29K Fulcrum Naval - 1991
* FRS.51 Sea Harrier II - 2005
* Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Naval - 2007
* HAL/Yak-41M Freestyle II - 2012
* HAL/Yak-43M VSTOL - 2015 (stealthy, nasty sucker!)
* HAL/Yak-44T Tanker - 2007
* Tu-142F Upgrade - 2007
* Sea King Mk.42 Upgarde - 2007

Not included in the above list are a whole host of new Submarine designs, both diesel and nuclear-powered. Some of these include:

* Amur 1650 SS - 2008
* Scorpene S-80 - 2002 (UNITID#1473)
* Type 209 / 1500 Upgrade - 2007
* Chakra 670 / Charlie I SSGN - 1988
* Chitra / 670M / Charlie II SSGN - 2006
* Ghandi - I (ATV) SSGN - 2012
* Ghandi II (ATV) SSBN - 2013

The above do not represent changes to existing aircraft but in many cases carry production cut-off dates as far as 2040.

Similar changes are already at Battlegoat and should come out in next update for China, to make the region more interesting and challenging to play.

There are thus the improvements you seek in various regions coming, but it takes a huge amount of time to input data and then test it for validity within the game against other systems. Patience, mate.
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