WM Waters on World Map...

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CptBritish
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WM Waters on World Map...

Post by CptBritish »

Right I don't have the Full Version (I'm bidding on Ebay for it ATM) but to my understanding that WM waters stay as WM on the World Map...

Why would this happen... In a world as Pissed off and Power hungry as the SR world you'd think they'd split up the International (WM) waters evenly...
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Decimatus
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Post by Decimatus »

Yeah, you would think so.

At some point, I think someone will make a mod that basically makes the WM into a conquerable AI on the world map.

Of course, they should then add all kinds of offshore treasures(oil, food perhaps, etc) to be conquered and exploited. :)

Especially when you conquer a nation, and that nation's little island territory falls under WM borders somehow. I would like to conquer that island back from the useless WM.
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

and i still want a war with them too. I have wasted to many tomahawks on them already.

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Legend
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Post by Legend »

At the world level, think of WM waters as a neutral zone (any Star Trek fans out there?) Additionally if WM water in the world map was divided for example between N.America and Europe right down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean... how would naval battles exist? I'd bring my N.American boats over your border - bam - were at war... but how do you know I'm crossing your border if you don't have boats there? If you don't exert some form of control then how do you keep your border there? Having a neutral zone also allows boats to travel around the world to other regions without having to always worry about their nearest neighbouring region.
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Post by Decimatus »

The neutral zone in star trek is quite conquerable, and gets conquered when the major powers go to war.

The WM water would be conquerable, not that it would automatically reach out and adjust. The WM should not be immune from attack, at least not in the world map scenario. If you have a fleet of destroyers out in the water, you should be able to own that, and most especially supply it. If someone wants to contest this ownership they can move their fleet out and conquer it for themselves. There is no loyalty in an ocean hex, but you should certainly be able to stake your claim over it.

If other nations need to cross that ocean to get to an enemy, they can either get a transit treaty with you, or you can let them pass without declaring war.

Why does it matter anyway, the AI wouldn't care to cross open ocean in the first place. Afterall, they don't declare war on anyone who isn't right next to them.

Also, I think this auto border feature should be completely pulled. It is way too unrealistic. When Germany conquered France, spain did not automatically recieve a 50 mile border extension just because german troops weren't there to stop it from happening.

Borders don't move on their own unless there are troops there to make it move. If a nation surrenders to the invader, it doesn't automatically carve up into the surrounding regions without prior agreements.
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

well the region that is surrendering could have gave lands to another region before it surrendered. I would have if i got beat. Kinda rubbing in the conquerors faces.
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Post by Decimatus »

bergsjaeger wrote:well the region that is surrendering could have gave lands to another region before it surrendered. I would have if i got beat. Kinda rubbing in the conquerors faces.
So, give me a few examples where this has happened in recent history. It doesn't happen. Saddam could have given all the land he wanted to Syria and Iran, but it wouldn't have ever amounted to anything. The US would tell Syria and Iran that they most certainly don't have any claim to the land that Saddam "gave" them, and that would be the end of it.

This is especially the case for giving whole divisions of enemy troops just giving themselves over to the surrounding nations rather than the conquerer. It just doesn't happen in RL, and it shouldn't happen in game.

I would rather face an AI that is simulating running a region in the world, rather than playing against an AI that is making a poor attempt at simulating a human player.
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

well noted i just sayin y its happening like it is in the game. But anyways.
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haenkie
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Post by haenkie »

the AI does give out land hexes to others. I captured the capital of the middle east, it gave some lands to me, to russia (who were also at war) and to AFRICA!!! They got the arabic peninsula , i got the suez canal, but can invade india this way. But of course you can trust africa to declare n me!

But africa wasnt a part in this war and got a very good deal of lands....
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bergsjaeger
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Post by bergsjaeger »

It happens. Some part of the game i guess. I still want a war with the Wm. I have counted every missle i have launched at the WM its over 6000 now. All tomahawk X's. The funny part is they are still delighted with me even with every one of their industry, military base, and on most all their cities and towns blown away. Go figure. I want a war with them and i will never get it :evil: But i like the news headlines that say WM city or what ever was obliterated from bombardment except it never tells how many of their civilans were lost.
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George Geczy
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Post by George Geczy »

It is one of those 'game design' elements to not be able to engage the WM. As fun as it sounds, it isn't what the game is about :-)

Regarding the water, the "World Market" water is actually a special case, what would be considered to be "International Waters". It isn't real "World Market" territory, as there are always full transit permissions etc allowed.

To do things in International Waters you have to resort to the tried and true techniques like blockades, convoys, etc.

-- George.
Decimatus
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Post by Decimatus »

Can we get at least one change in?

The WM waters that are right next to the gibralter straits where WM, Africa, and Europe waters meet. It absolutely prevents your from supplying that port in africa when you are conquering the waters south from Spain.

I mean, it is only 20 miles away, and the port will never get built even if I had 100 warships sitting there. Those 1-2 hexes of WM water are in the way and should be given to Africa or Europe.

Need the port to continue taking coastline South from Europe into Africa.

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Balthagor
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Post by Balthagor »

You'll need Legend to add this to his "to dos" for the World map's next touch up, but seems reasonable.
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Post by yakaspat »

I think some people are confusing what the WM is. It is not a country or physical place, but an abstration. For example, the US cannot attack the United Nations...the UN is political assembly, not a place or thing to be attacked. You can blow up the UN HQ, but, that is not the same as blowing up the UN itself. The WM is the same thing. It is representative of the "World Community", or the "International Community". It's an abstraction for game mechanics, a sorta quasi-uber-UN. When I get a message that the WM is overing me military units, I think of it as "the International Community" offering me units. If they invade me, it is a joint International effort to stop my aggressive tendencies. That's my take on, it, anyway.
Decimatus
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Post by Decimatus »

yakaspat wrote:I think some people are confusing what the WM is. It is not a country or physical place, but an abstration. For example, the US cannot attack the United Nations...the UN is political assembly, not a place or thing to be attacked. You can blow up the UN HQ, but, that is not the same as blowing up the UN itself. The WM is the same thing. It is representative of the "World Community", or the "International Community". It's an abstraction for game mechanics, a sorta quasi-uber-UN. When I get a message that the WM is overing me military units, I think of it as "the International Community" offering me units. If they invade me, it is a joint International effort to stop my aggressive tendencies. That's my take on, it, anyway.
The WM is still represented by physical land and lots of ocean. Ocean which is essential for supply, and oil in many cases. My main issue is on the world map, where there is no WM, and all "WM" waters should be open to conquest. N. America should own all the waters in the gulf, there should be no international waters there. Europe should basically own the north sea. I realize that the AI won't have any clue how to claim WM waters, but the option should be there for the players.

I am just wondering how to turn the WM into a conquerable player in my custom scenarios. I will probably just give it a capital in Antarctica or something, which should allow me to declare war on it, and conquer all the seas I can get my hands on. This is vital for supplies in many cases.
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