Metal Ore Consumption

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WuOne
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Metal Ore Consumption

#1 Post by WuOne » Oct 10 2012

Does anyone knows how much metal ore you need to produce 1 ton of industry goods, military and consumer goods?
Basically all of these goods are made of metal so it seems to me that metal ore demand and consumption should be much higher than it is.

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#2 Post by GIJoe597 » Oct 10 2012

I have just spent the last 30 minutes looking for a post Balthagor made some years ago, with the location you can find that in the game files as well as an actual number of items it takes to make a finished product. I failed. Maybe someone else can find the post or knows the game file it is located in.

Was something like this (made up numbers to illustrate what teh post looked liked)

Ind goods or one of the other goods

0.5 Petro
0.6 Ore
1.0 Elect
0.3 coal
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georgios
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#3 Post by georgios » Oct 10 2012

The answer is in the default.wmdata file in the maps - data folder.

1ton ore = 1 ton industry goods

0.25 ton ore + 0.25 ton ind goods = 1 ton cons goods

0.5 ton ore + 0.5 ton ind goods = 1 ton mil goods.

I find this not very realistic so I changed it. The wmdata file is very interesting because it affects the game balances. I do much work to find a more realistic resource flow and I have many proven results. I am interested to discuss it with anyone involved.

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#4 Post by WuOne » Oct 11 2012

georgios wrote:The answer is in the default.wmdata file in the maps - data folder.

1ton ore = 1 ton industry goods (thats wrong)

0.25 ton ore + 0.25 ton ind goods = 1 ton cons goods (0.25 + 0.25 makes 0.5 so thats also strange)

0.5 ton ore + 0.5 ton ind goods = 1 ton mil goods.

I find this not very realistic so I changed it. The wmdata file is very interesting because it affects the game balances. I do much work to find a more realistic resource flow and I have many proven results. I am interested to discuss it with anyone involved.
Physical resources. (metal consuption)
industry goods = metal + coal + petroleum (producefrom,0,0,0,15,1,1,0,15,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,)
consumer goods = metal + ind g (producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.25,0,,,,,,,,,,,,)
military goods = metal + industry + petroleum (producefrom,0,0,0,75,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.5,0,,,,,,,,,,,,)

I guess producefrom is the one that tells what exactly its made of, but I'm no modder so I dont understand that... I dont know what is that numbers.
Can anyone read that code correctly? :)
I also think timber should be in consumer goods and maybe in industry goods
Aand petroleum demand must be alot higher, can we increase civilian consumption of petrol for example?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/iron3.htm
To create a ton of pig iron, you start with 2 tons (1.8 metric tons) of ore, 1 ton of coke (0.9 metric tons) and a half ton (0.45 metric tons) of limestone.
So to get one ton of metal which you can almost use you need 2 tons of ore... What is telling me its need to double the demand of ore to get the finished goods.

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#5 Post by georgios » Oct 13 2012

The code is:

produce from, tons agri, 1000cubic metre water, cubic metre timber, bbl oil, tons coal, tons ore, kg uranium, MWh electricity, tons consumer, tons industry, tons military goods

So: (producefrom,0,0,0,15,1,1,0,15,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,) means:

1 ton industry goods = 15 barrels petroleum + 1 ton coal + 1 ton ore + 15 MWh electricity

it is true that 1ton ore = 1 ton industry goods - you asked how much ore is needed.

(producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.25,0,,,,,,,,,,,,) means:

1 ton consumer goods = 0.5 tons ore + 15 MWh electricity + 0.25 tons industry goods

(producefrom,0,0,0,75,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.5,0,,,,,,,,,,,,) means:

1 ton military goods = 75 bbl oil + 0.5 tons ore + 15 MWh electricity + 0.5 tons industry goods

Initial game doesn't include timber in any manufacturing. It fits both in consumer and industy goods. It depends from what you mean to be any of these commodities. We have to analyse the quantities produced and consumed in the game to find what the game means with these "recipes".

The game seems not to add the weights of raw materials at the computing of any production. It is not a chemical mass balance, but a trade balance.

If you want to be chemical realistic you should measure the quantities of materials produced globally and compare them with the real production. This will show you that the global game's metal ore production is equal to the real world rare metal ore production, not iron, copper and aluminium. So, if you want to simulate steel production you should change the mine output to be realistic too.

And for goods, what means industry and consumer goods? Game says that a normal person consumes 300kg consumer goods per year, made from industry goods, made from 0.075 tons of not ferrous ore. So a person consumes annually 75 kg of precious ores, chromium, nikelium, vanadium, wolframium... The steel alloy containing these metal will weight tons!

The game did this balance not for realism reasons, but to set competition for them between civilian and military use. If you want to make war you must cut civilian consumption. And if you try to be sufficient to serve both needs you will not afford the cost.

Other factor is the existence of each production facility in the map. If the material inputs are changed the imports - exports will change too. The game should have the countries in competition for resources. It is a big challenge to remake a resource model, combining realism and game experience.

georgios
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#6 Post by georgios » Oct 13 2012

To measure the global production - consumption you shoul group all regions to one, so your production will be the global production. There are not imports - exports and you can do "mass balance" for everything. My last computations gave that:

agri: producefrom,0,1.3,0,9,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

water: producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.3,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

timber: producefrom,0,0,0,0.02,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

petroleum: producefrom,0,0.2,0,0,1.7,0,0,0.9,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

coal: producefrom,0,0,0,0.2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

ore: producefrom,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,1,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

uranium: producefrom,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

electricity: producefrom,0,0,0,1.785714286,0.46728972,0,0.026246719,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

consumer: producefrom,1,0.1,0,0,0,0,0,1.5,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

industry: producefrom,0,1,1,3,1,1,0,15,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

military: producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,15,0,1,0,,,,,,,,,,,,

there is not terrain or urban production. this scheme drives to real shortage many regions, even the developed not only for oil and power but for water and food too.

WuOne
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#7 Post by WuOne » Oct 13 2012

Thanks for explanation
georgios wrote: Initial game doesn't include timber in any manufacturing. It fits both in consumer and industy goods. It depends from what you mean to be any of these commodities. We have to analyse the quantities produced and consumed in the game to find what the game means with these "recipes".
Consumer goods for my opinion is cars, furniture, electronics, and everything what you are buying for you and for your home. Well basically all the furniture made of woods, sofa have wooden base under the leather, then its tables, chairs, kitchen, beds... Cars made of metal etc...
georgios wrote:If you want to be chemical realistic you should measure the quantities of materials produced globally and compare them with the real production. This will show you that the global game's metal ore production is equal to the real world rare metal ore production, not iron, copper and aluminium. So, if you want to simulate steel production you should change the mine output to be realistic too.
Its not that important to be chemical realistic, just metal ore and timber are never in demand, poor country's for example can't export them as they usually do because no one needs it.
georgios wrote: The game did this balance not for realism reasons, but to set competition for them between civilian and military use. If you want to make war you must cut civilian consumption. And if you try to be sufficient to serve both needs you will not afford the cost.
Well if you set military initiative to none and control deployment yourself you can manage to do both (except for big global world war :-) )
georgion wrote:Other factor is the existence of each production facility in the map. If the material inputs are changed the imports - exports will change too. The game should have the countries in competition for resources. It is a big challenge to remake a resource model, combining realism and game experience.
Thats the point, if we include timber in consumer goods, then timber might become profitable aswel, and ofcource consumer goods production price will increase, and demands will be so you can trade them. For metal if we just decrease metal production for facilities the rest will remain the same, just metal demand will grow, well and the price :) (I guess)
Just want a bit better balance in demands...

Will it take effect with my current save game if I try to test it?
How can I change facility ore output values and maintenance cost? If i reduce facility production and maintenance cost of that facility, I would like to see results. Can someone help me with that?

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#8 Post by WuOne » Oct 13 2012

After a better look
georgios wrote:
(producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.25,0,,,,,,,,,,,,) means:

1 ton consumer goods = 0.5 tons ore + 15 MWh electricity + 0.25 tons industry goods
0.5 + 0.25 = 0.75 well its exactly 0.25 of timber missing here 8)
or we could change to 0.5 ore + 0.4 ind + 0.1 timber or something like that

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#9 Post by georgios » Oct 14 2012

Timber is measured in cubic meters!!

1 cubic meter timber weights 500 - 800 kg

You can add timber input without caring about its weight.

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#10 Post by georgios » Oct 14 2012

I believe that the game means that the small amount of industry goods is the high cost portion of consumer goods and the rest is nameless.

But I completely disagree with use of raw metal ore along with industry goods. Consumer goods factories could better not include foundries. Let it be light industry, for example textile.

I have thought to make consumer goods from agriculture (clothes and processed food) and machines and electronics to be industry goods. So the public will buy industry goods too.

georgios
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#11 Post by georgios » Oct 14 2012

Decreasing production can make sense in the prices only if you are a big producer. If not, other producers will benefit and cover your market share.

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#12 Post by WuOne » Oct 16 2012

georgios wrote:I find this not very realistic so I changed it. The wmdata file is very interesting because it affects the game balances. I do much work to find a more realistic resource flow and I have many proven results. I am interested to discuss it with anyone involved.
Can you post the changes in wmdata file? I would like to try it. Does the demands and prices changes? I need to start new game to make it work?
I dont know how to do it and where to include specific product in consumption, but I know some goods should have much higher demand. I think agriculture, metal, timber, and petroleum demand have to be alot higher, for example Saudi Arabia and Norway are not selling petroleum 4 "gaming years" already and me as Russia didn't even build a single additional gas field and I also didnt export for a looong time, maybe around 5 "game years". I didnt have a single farm in game when I started, now I got alot higher population and I still didnt build a farm. Metal Ore same... noone needs it from the beginning of the game and timber same.

Little test :
My population is 472 million and its piecefull time...
I have 0 timber mills active and Im self sufficient and even producing twice the demand
40 of 195 Ore Mines Active - Producing twice the demand
0 of 74 Agriculture active - Producing bit more than demand
279 Oil fields active - Producing 3.5 times more than demand

Didn't build any of the listed facilities during 9 "game years" just had to disable a lot of them, which brings me to high unemployment now...
All markups are just 25% and average tax rate 41%
Military Production 56/35/24/290 all running non stop
I find this not very realistic
To be realistic - all of this products are in demand in our days, and about petroleum aswell its in a big demand and to be realistic I think you need to have petroleum in reserves to can afford yourself a war, well I've been in several wars during this game, and petroleum demand didnt even come close to half of my production limits, well maybe because I'm playing Russia... :)
ore
wmnodeproduction,1500000,,// Was 500000 but trying to ease world shortage with increase,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
well thats too much ease now
P.S. I made a changes in default.wmdata but they dont apply to my current game and even to a new game, why?

georgios
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#13 Post by georgios » Oct 17 2012

Yes, I will post it! Give me a day to prepare a detailed advice how to do the changes. I will show you the way to create your own model.

Demand and prices will change.

You must start a new game.

Agriculture, water and timber are produced even without the related facilities, if you have the resources on your region. The facilities increase output. Russia is a huge region with very little population. I played Russia too but when I conquered China and India they depleted my food, water and oil resources! Be careful with industry goods. Russia conquers very quickly the afroeurasian regions and the damaged buildings you gain need repairs, so you will run out of industry goods.

If you set volatility high, all the world will demand military, industry goods and oil. There will be extreme shortage.

WuOne
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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#14 Post by WuOne » Oct 17 2012

I did my first changes test, well, everything worked instead of one thing - I couldn't include timber in consumer goods production, it just didnt work.
producefrom,0,0,0.25,0,0,0.5,0,15,0,0.25,0,,,,,,,,,,,, in game timber didnt show in consumption details...
the rest was working but I reduce production way too much...
Im playing on medium volatility modern world campaign, so I wish to mod it so oil, timber, metal and agriculture will be possible to sell even in peaceful time. Currently is some wars going on there but noone needs anything, Saudi Arabia is not exporting oil at all, Norway is in bankrupt because noone needs oil, while Norway's main income is on oil exports in real life and economy is very strong, I also cant sell anything... Well now is not a world war in 2012 and petrol prices keep rising...
Waiting for your model...

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Re: Metal Ore Consumption

#15 Post by georgios » Oct 17 2012

&&WMDATA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
gdpcbase,20000,// World Baseline GDP/c,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
primerate,0.035,// World Central Bank Prime Rate,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
battstrdefault,54,38,44,45,18,40,24,24,1,18,18,18,12,6,12,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
hexresmults,0,0.05,0.1,0.15,0,2,4,12,"// Hex Resource multipliers 0-3 - First four Terrain Only, Next four with Upgrade",,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,0,// AGRI,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,800,// Baseline Game Cost of Unit (NOT incl raw materials in),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,4734.1,// ESTIMATE of minimum full cost of unit with raw materials (cheapest form),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,790000,// HEX Multiplier of raw PRODUCTION (was 18000),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0,// Unit Consumption annually PER PERSON - MAX,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,// Unit Consumption annually PER PERSON - MIN,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.2,// Default starting Markups,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,"// Node equivalent (0-6.0) produced 'synth/other' per urban 50K (max) pop (No raw requirement, but basecost still applies)",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,// Set True if this resource is produced by terrain with no upgrades,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
// Produce (Synth) other goods requirement (used individually or in combination),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
//,Agri,Water,Timber,Oil,Coal,Ore,Uranium,Power,Cons,Ind,Mil,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,1.3,0,9,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,1,// Fresh Water,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,2000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,2057,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,5500000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,2.5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0.3,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,2,// Timber,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,55,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,57.2,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,2400000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.15,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,0.02,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,3,// Petroleum,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,140,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,140,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,40000000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,24,"// Was 12, then 18",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.5,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0.2,0,0,1.7,0,0,0.9,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,4,// Coal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,80,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,108,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,10000000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0.1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,0.2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,5,// Ore,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,450,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,730,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,500000,,// Was 500000 but trying to ease world shortage with increase,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,6,// Uranium,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,375,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,400000,// Was 200000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.95,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,7,// Electric Power,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,190,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,190,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,8760000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.4,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
bwmterrain,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,1.785714286,0.46728972,0,0.026246719,0,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,8,// Consumer Goods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,15500,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,20523.214,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,1000000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0.8,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.25,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,1,0.002,0,0,0,0,0,1.5,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,9,// Industrial Goods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,11500,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,15768.05,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,400000,// Was 500000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0.075,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.25,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0.05,1,3,1,1,0,15,0,0,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
&&WMPRODDATA,10,// Military Goods,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmbasecost,20500,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmfullcost,39118.05,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmnodeproduction,200000,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmax,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmprodperpersonmin,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmmargin,1.25,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
wmurbanproduction,0,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
producefrom,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,15,0,1,0,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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