Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

Zuikaku wrote:...Not saying they are dead...
But that's not what this thread is about. I'm looking to identify all true dead end techs.

[edit: of all the words to miss, I had to pick "not" |O ]
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Scoose »

Is there a pdf or any other source of tech tree we could use?
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

There is the in game tech tree.

I keep hearing "there are so many". That should make them easy to find, at least a few of them...
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Scoose »

I am 40 years old now, after I have clicked 2 or 3 techs I forget what I was doing and what was before :P I meant something I can look at as a whole (no rude jokes please).
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by hazard151 »

Balthagor wrote:But that's what this thread is about. I'm looking to identify all true dead end techs.
Speed bump prerequisite techs aren't exactly any better than dead end techs, given the expense of research in the game that just causes an inflation in costs with no mechanical benefits. The Commercial Refrigeration, Commercial Food Processing and Improved Military Logistics line of research is an excellent example of this problem, requiring a 425 million dollar investment with no effect just to be allowed to research the 120 million dollar Improved Military Logistics tech.

I know it'll require a rebalancing of the tech tree and the like but IMO it'd be better if they were all folded into a single tech with a similar cost and the Basic Electronics prerequisite, as that's what's required to research IML outside of the speedbumps. Another option would be to give Commercial Refrigeration and Commercial Food Processing (minor) effects of their own, perhaps 1 or 2 percent bumps to agricultural production or lowering population and perhaps consumer goods production based agricultural product draw as a result of researching these techs to simulate the effects of less food spoilage, although I note that consumer goods have no agricultural draw, which is odd given how much agricultural space and effort is devoted to non-food production like clothing.

I'll also note that I find Science techs an exception to the 'no ability beyond unlocking techs' rule, as scientific advances often show the theoritical underpinnings for something that a Technology (or other) tech would then effectively implement, just don't make it a chain of techs with only 1 prerequisite (or a web of techs leading to 1 'does stuff' tech and nothing more).

There is also the problem that there's a large number of technologies that offer new units to certain nations but nothing to most (New Submarine Prototypes offers Germany the Type VIIF and the Type XVII, and the USA the SS-285 Balao, but the USSR and the UK get nothing, while Canada doesn't get any new subs after Sumarine Techs 1935 until Advanced Ballast Tanks, 7 techs down the line, of which New Submarine Prototype is #3), which could do with filling, either global units or region dependent (I know, lots of work).


Also of interest is unnecessary duplications of prerequisite technologies, as shown in Basic Electronics requiring Industrialisation as a direct prerequisite. I call this unnecessary because Basic Electronics already requires Industrialisation through the speed bump tech line of Industrialisation -> Isotope Principles ($160M, 160 days, 1913) -> Atomic Fundamentals ($120M, 140 days, 1917, branch to Isotope Seperation Process) -> Polymerisation Theories ($250M,440 days, 1922) -> Improved Plastics ($300M, 280 days, 1924, branch to Synthetic Rubber and Transportation Improvements, unit design BBI-1 Summit) -> Basic Electronics ($1100M, 320, 1925).

I understand that this may have to do with making sure that scenario settings don't make it easy to skip certain technologies, but in that case it should still not matter, as many era technologies have no effect beyond unlocking more technologies for research anyway.

Also, Isotope Principles can easily be folded into Atomic Fundamentals as it has no effect on the game beyond leading to Atomic Fundamentals and the cost in money and time required for its development, the same is true for Polymerisation Theories, it can be folded into Improved Plastics with no loss except for a slightly flatter tech tree. For example, here's how I'd do the tech chain towards Basic Electronics: Industrialisation -> (Isotope Principle & Atomic Fundamentals combined tech, branch to Isotope Seperation Process) -> (Polymerisation Theories & Improved Plastics combined tech, branch to Transportation Improvements and Synthetic Rubber (scrap Synthetic Rubber Production as speed bump tech, fold Synthetic Rubber Plant discovery into Synthetic Rubber tech)) -> Basic Electronics.


I'll echo the request for a tech tree. Preferably an ingame one that we can fold out and view in its entirety, unlike the current partial shot system. I know, the tech tree is an intricate and interconnected thing, but the system as it is in 1936 is only partially useable as it can be very difficult to find a tech you are looking for if you don't know its prerequisites down to whatever tech level you are on, nor is finding it in the list of hundreds of technologies scattered across 6 fields. And that requires that you already have discovered the technology in question.


A fourth matter is that, while unit designs enabled by a certain piece of technology are shown as part of the research viewscreen, facilities are not. Which can make it difficult to see what a given technology does when the only thing it does is enable a new facility for construction.


Finally on techs that are actually dead ends, I've got two in SU 1936. First is the entire water technology line and the second is the whole space research system. They may offer some prerequisite technologies for actually useful stuff down the line but otherwise it's all dead ends and speed bumps.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

hazard151 wrote:
Balthagor wrote:But that's not what this thread is about. I'm looking to identify all true dead end techs.
Speed bump prerequisite techs aren't exactly any better than dead end techs...
Perhaps, but that's not what this thread is about. We don't currently have the development resources to rebalance > 800 technologies.
hazard151 wrote:...Finally on techs that are actually dead ends, I've got two in SU 1936. First is the entire water technology line...
As per the OP, I need exact name and tech year. I'm not sure which techs you mean.
hazard151 wrote:...and the second is the whole space research system...
We're working on the "tech races" stuff. There is an option for the last tech to trigger victory. Effects don't get much bigger than that.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Kristijonas »

A suggestion on Space Tech effects:

I noticed some techs have international or domestic approval ratings. If the system works, these techs improve/decrease domestic approval or relations with other countries/UN, correct?
If so, perhaps space techs could have improved approval ratings instead of other bonuses? Historically USSR an USA competed in space tech because it was a matter of international prestige, population unity and justification of their government type ("look what achievements our democratic/communist ways brought, we are better than the flawed democracy/communism!").
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

Kristijonas wrote:...If so, perhaps space techs could have improved approval ratings...
I think they do...
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by hazard151 »

Balthagor wrote:Perhaps, but that's not what this thread is about. We don't currently have the development resources to rebalance > 800 technologies.
True, but these complaints are still something to take note of, so that they can be dealt with later, or avoided ahead of time in the development of a spiritual successor.
Balthagor wrote:As per the OP, I need exact name and tech year. I'm not sure which techs you mean.
Okay, just a grab bag for techs for Brazil in SR1936, not checking the military techs themselves because of unit dependencies for other nations and not all related to the water techs I meant. Note, there's a bunch of facility granting branch ends in the list; that's because the facility isn't listed in the effect, design or follow up tech lists, which leaves the impression there isn't any, as well as techs I consider speedbumps, which is techs with no effects of their own and gate one or two follow up techs that are branch ends with useful effects. Likewise, some techs that offer only maluses without anything useful in return for the investment:
  • Electromagnetic Lift Trains (2014), speedbump; no effect of its own but it gates 2 techs with infrastructural effects (Maglev Rail Infrastructure(2015) and Nano-Upgraded Maglev Rails (2018), both the last techs in their paths. MR Infra requires no further techs and can easily be folded into Eletromagnetic Lift Trains, Nano-Upgraded MR requires Nano-metallurgy)
  • Naval Fuel Cells (2006), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Non-Combustible Fuels (2022), no effect
  • Organic Suspension (2020), No effect
  • Steam Catapult Systems (1950), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • CT Scan Imaging (1962), no effect
  • Advanced Carbon Forms (1987), no effect
  • Bio Fuels Facilities (1998), Public Opinion bonus, marked as unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Clean Coal Technology (2003), Public Opinion Bonus, speedbump, gates 1 tech, of which it's the only prerequisite
  • Clean Coal Retrofit (2004), Public Opinion Bonus, lowered pollution, penalty to coal energy plants, can easily be folded into CC Technology
  • Dark Energy Plants (2058), marked as unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Digital Signal Broadcasting (2002), no effect
  • Early Color Photography (1935), no effect
  • Human Neural Net Transfer (2075), no effect
  • Hydroponics Plant (1992), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Mobile Steel Barges (1933), speedbump, gates 1 tech, of which it's the only prerequisite, grants ability to build Oceanic Complexes
  • Underwater Petroleum Extraction (1938), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided, Oil Rigs are the ony available ocean born structures outside of the Oceanic Complexes necessary to act as hub facilities for Oceanic structures. Can easily be folded into the same technology
  • Modern Coal Gassification (1990), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Radar Facility (1936), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Reconnaissance Satellites (1975), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • VHTR Nuclear Reactors (2006), speedbump, gates 1 tech, of which it's the only prerequisite
  • Refit to Nuclear VHTR (2007), bonus to nuclear power production, lowered maintenance for nuclear power plants, can be folded into VHTR Nuclear Reactors)
  • Stirling Solar Collectors (2011), no effect
  • Synthetic Gas Plants (2037), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Synthetic Rubber Production (1932), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided. Can be folded into Synthetic Rubber
  • Underground Coal Gassification (1937), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Anti-Vaccine (2011), Public Opinion malus, no further effects
  • Controlled Genetic Mutation (2030), Public Opinion malus, no further effects
  • Healthcare Improvements (1942), no effect beyond leading to;
  • Fluoridated Water Supply (1945), no effect
  • Commercial Nuclear Power (1956), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
  • Commercial Video Gaming (1972), no effect
  • Consumer GPS (1998), no effect
  • Satellite Television (1967), no effect
  • Digital Movie Production (1984), no effect, 1 followup tech, right below;
  • Digital Video Compression (1993), no effect, 1 followup tech, right below;
  • Digital Broadcasting (1996), no effect (Digital Video tech line total effect: Nothing, not even an opinion shift)
  • Synchronous Power Grid (1908), speed bump, only thing it does is grant access to Industrialisation, which grants access to most of the rest of the tech tree as well as several units
Balthagor wrote:We're working on the "tech races" stuff. There is an option for the last tech to trigger victory. Effects don't get much bigger than that.
Tech victory? Nice. Which tech is that exactly? Because the 1936 tech tree navigation is... rather terrible.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

hazard151 wrote:...Electromagnetic Lift Trains (2014), speedbump; no effect of its own but it gates 2 techs...
Unlocking another tech is an effect. I've been clear on what sort of techs I'm looking for. If you cannot respect my request, I will wait for a report that meets the criteria I've outlined. Please remove from your list techs that unlock other techs and resubmit it.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

A big thank you to a user who isn't registered on the forum so emailed me this data;

Anti-Tank Rifles 1944 does actually lead to a unit design, but only one. Ideally it should be used more widely.
Steam Catapult Systems 1950 used for US Forrestal carrier and one other. Eventually we should have more fictional units that use this.
Stirling Solar Collectors 2019 - Facility Prereq, Adv. Solar Power
Military Gravlift Units 2035 - Intended to be a tech prereq for future units, not created yet. Also now part of an upcoming "tech race" like the space race.
Ion Domes 2047 New Facility with this? Intended as a facility prereq, didn't get the 3D model for the facility completed.
Quantum Computers 2023 - prerq for 4 other techs
Nano Weaponry 2026 - True dead end. There were design barriers with some of our thoughts for this tech.
Dark Energy Power Plants 2064 New facility with this? - Yes
Large Bomber Airframes 1935 - prereq for 4 units (B-17 for example). Ideally we add more units that use this.
Multiple Rocket Launcher Prototypes 1946 - prerequisite for the Soviet Katyusha - http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/de ... mor_id=369 - no one else built MLRS units for a while. Ideally we should have some fictional units related to this tech.
Electronic Warfare III 2004? - 2009. True dead end
Portable AT Rockets 1941 - True dead end. Was intended for some unit designs that got rejected.
Laser AA Defense Site 2031 New facility with this? - yes
Advanced Turbo prop prototype 1942 - very widely used unit prereq
Advanced Artillery II 2015 - True dead end - there are likely units that should be using this as a prereq.
Nuclear Supercarriers 1955 - True dead end - there are likely units that should be using this as a prereq.
Synthetic Gas Plant 2037 New facility with this? - yes
Noncombustable fuels 2022 - True dead end. Should likely tie into aircraft advances
Cloaking 205? - 2054 - used by two missiles, used widely in Ruges Mod. Potential for more fictional units to use this.
Controlled Genetic Mutation 2035 - dead end but with a massive popular negative. A way to make everyone not like you. Useful for players who role-play their game.
Improved Laser Systems 1966 - True dead end. Likely intended to be a prerequisite somewhere.
Advanced carbon forms 1987 - True dead end
Bio fuels facility 1998 New facility with this? - yes
Digital signal broadcasting 2002 - True dead end.
Commercial Nuclear Power 1956 New facility with this? - yes
Commercial Video Gaming 1972 - True dead end, but as much an easter egg as a tech.
Consumer GPS 1998 - True dead end
Digital Video Broadcasting 1996 - True dead end
CT Scan Imaging 1967 neither prerequisite had anything either - True dead end
Modern Coal Gasification 1990 - Facility Prereq
Satellite TV 1967 - True dead end
Early Color Photography 1935 - True dead end
Fluoridated water supply 1945 prerequisite had nothing either - True dead end
Healthcare Improvements 1942 - Agree, this kinda screams for a bonus. Noted.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Kristijonas »

Nice, are those your comments, Balthagor? Are there plans to add effects to some of the dead-end techs?
Also, water fluoridation is a VERY controversial thing... I had a hard time thinking about it when I encountered it. As I like to research everything without discrimination, this came to me as a decision and not 'research' per se.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by Balthagor »

Kristijonas wrote:Nice, are those your comments, Balthagor?...
Yes, the user provided the titles, a few comments. Most of the comments are mine.
Kristijonas wrote:...Are there plans to add effects to some of the dead-end techs?...
Not at this time, that's a topic for another thread. For now my goal is to resolve the dead end techs.
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by number47 »

Balthagor wrote:
Kristijonas wrote:...Are there plans to add effects to some of the dead-end techs?...
Not at this time, that's a topic for another thread. For now my goal is to resolve the dead end techs.
And how do you intend to "resolve" them? :P
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Re: Tech Tree - Tech effects and progression.

Post by dax1 »

hazard151 wrote: Steam Catapult Systems (1950), marked as a unit/facility prerequisite, but none provided
hazard don't see the unt couse he (maybe) don't play with USA

I wish that for every tech that is "marked as a unit prerequisite" I can develop a new unit (also very weak)for every region.

This has happened to me in CW, to be the region's most technologically advanced, but I could not build new units.
I was the first to achieve the advanced submarine, but in reality no units available to develop. :-( :-( :-(
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