AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

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Zuikaku
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AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

So, there are 2 basic problems with AI vs. AI wars in sandbox mode.

1. Aside from scripted events, AI very rarely or never starts wars with another AI region.

2. If wars are started in any way, they last forever or until one region is completely destroyed.

Now, I won't talk about wars that last forever, since they are covered in following thread:
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 70&t=21342

I would like to give a few suggestions how to make SR world more vivid by socasionally sparking AI vs. AI wars.

- AI should sometimes get CB on other region where it has loyal hexes (recent example is russian-ukrainean tensions)
- AI should try to more actively spy on it's neighbours if they are not allied. Spies caught are nice CB
- If there is no spy academy available, there should be some random events that increases CB
- cross border incursions should give a slight CB every time. As Mexico I have a dozen of US air incursions a year, but they do not provide me any CB
- it is very boring when you know where and when is every war going to start (scripted events)
Please teach AI everything!
Aragos
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Aragos »

I think it is a reflection from the SRCW coding that is still in the game. The same problem in SRCW mods as well--you just couldn't get the AI to attack each other, the way it would in SR2020.
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

Aragos wrote:I think it is a reflection from the SRCW coding that is still in the game. The same problem in SRCW mods as well--you just couldn't get the AI to attack each other, the way it would in SR2020.
And I guess there will be no improvements on this area?
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Fistalis »

Zuikaku wrote:
Aragos wrote:I think it is a reflection from the SRCW coding that is still in the game. The same problem in SRCW mods as well--you just couldn't get the AI to attack each other, the way it would in SR2020.
And I guess there will be no improvements on this area?
Likley not considering its another historical period SR.
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

Fistalis wrote:
Zuikaku wrote:
Aragos wrote:I think it is a reflection from the SRCW coding that is still in the game. The same problem in SRCW mods as well--you just couldn't get the AI to attack each other, the way it would in SR2020.
And I guess there will be no improvements on this area?
Likley not considering its another historical period SR.
That is not good for replayability value of sandbox mode.... every game the same wars at the same time....
Please teach AI everything!
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Balthagor
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Balthagor »

Not necessarily, we already see sometimes Germany attacks BeNeLux, sometimes it doesn't. There are lots of ways to make the play more unpredictable.
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

Balthagor wrote:Not necessarily, we already see sometimes Germany attacks BeNeLux, sometimes it doesn't. There are lots of ways to make the play more unpredictable.
But I'm talking about non-scripted wars that never happened historiccally. Woul'd be nice if they just happen sometimes... to make things more interesting - especially after WW era...
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

And what about situation which happened in my game:

Japan overrunned China and is in stalemate with UK over India/ Burma
Japanese AI don't know how to invade Phillipines or DEI
Germany annexed France but german AI just don't know to invade UK
Germany captured Moscow and most of the western USSR, but units are now forewer stuck in the siberia (AI don't know how to deal with wastness of USSR).
Germany is unable to invade Norway.
USA is in war with Japan and Germany but AI is unable to invade any of them.

But none of them sues for peace, not even an USSR who is on the knees and verge of destruction. Plese do something about endless AI vs. AI wars, it just doesn't make any sense!!

And enable AI to start non scripted wars, at least in sandbox mode!!!
Please teach AI everything!
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - Sandbox - HIstorical events

Post by geminif4ucorsair »

Zuikaku wrote:
Balthagor wrote:Not necessarily, we already see sometimes Germany attacks BeNeLux, sometimes it doesn't. There are lots of ways to make the play more unpredictable.
But I'm talking about non-scripted wars that never happened historiccally. Woul'd be nice if they just happen sometimes... to make things more interesting - especially after WW era...
Man has a good point, as does Zuikaku regarding AIs programming similarity to SR-2020 and SR-CW. As it has stood in recent years, SR programming has not been innovative in this area, especially when "High Volatility" setting are made, it rarely makes any difference
in AI vs AI war or AI vs Player wars.

Might want to consider some of these AI wars as "Medium" and "High Volatility" events, in the Player Option settings:

* * Franco-Thai_War, 1940-41 - this could begin anytime France is viewed as weak or Paris fall's.

The Franco-Thai War (1940–1941) was fought between Thailand and Vichy France over certain areas of French Indochina that had once belonged to Thailand. The German occupation of metropolitan France made France's hold on its overseas possessions, including Indochina, tenuous. The isolated colonial administration was cut off from outside help and outside supplies.
Ending the war comes if Thailand captures one or two of the "lost province" territories in Laos & Cambodia, under French colonial occupation.....France ceded the following provinces to Thailand from Cambodia:
* Battambang and Pailin, which were reorganized as Phra Tabong Province;
* Siem Reap, Banteay Meanchey and Oddar Meanchey, which were reorganized as Phibunsongkhram Province;
* Preah Vihear, which was merged with part of Champassak Province of Laos to form Nakorn Champassak Province;
and from Laos:
* Xaignabouli, including part of Luang Prabang Province, (and) a part of Champassak Province west of the Mekong River.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Thai_War

* * War between Peru and Ecuador....wars fought several times over Amazon region border, which even in late-30s was beginning
to show promise of oil.....
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuadorian–Peruvian_War

* * War between Chile and Peru....this is a war over Tacna and Arica provinces, which Chile controls as result of the "War in the Pacific" (1879-1883), but could also be Peru, having not gained the province (formerly Bolivian) and Chile's agreements with Anaconda Corp. (USA) during the 1930s, made the region extremely important to Santiago for natural phosphates and coppers - much of which was being taxed for government revenues and the product sold to Japan.
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific

* * Russia versus Republic of China (ROC), Xinjiang province (western China) - either 1934 or 1937.
In 1934, Ma Zhongying's Chinese Muslim troops, supported by the Kuomintang government of the Republic of China were on the verge of defeating the Soviet puppet Sheng Shicai during the Battle of Urumqi (1933–34) in the Kumul Rebellion. In late 1933, the Han Chinese provincial commander General Zhang Peiyuan and his Han army defected from the provincial government side to Ma Zhongying's side and joined him in waging war against Jin Shuren's provincial government. In 1934, two brigades of about 7,000 Soviet Russian GPU troops, backed by tanks, airplanes and artillery with mustard gas, crossed the border to assist Sheng Shicai in gaining control of Xinjiang.

1937 - In 1937, an Islamic rebellion broke out in southern Xinjiang. The rebellion is also viewed by some historians as a plot by Mahmut Muhiti and Ma Hu-shan to convert Xinjiang into a base for fighting against Stalinists. In August 1937, 5,000 Soviet Russian Red Army troops backed by an air unit and armoured regiment moved into Xinjiang at Sheng Shicai's request, whose Provincial troops suffered defeat from Muslim rebels in July 1937 at the battle near Karashar and were unable to continue their advance on the South.

General Chiang Yu-fen, a Provincial commander, despatched his men after Ma Hushan's 1st brigade, while other Provincial forces drove Abdu Niyaz and Kichik Akhund towards Yarkand. Red Army aircraft assisted the Provincial forces by dropping bombs, including some that contained mustard gas. These first flew from an airbase in Karakol, USSR, and then from captured airfields in Uchturpan and Kucha.[11] On 9 September Yarkand fell to Sheng, and on 15 September Abdul Niyaz was executed. On October 15 the Soviets bombed the city of Khotan where casualties numbered 2,000.[12][12] The remnants of the 36th division melted away through Kunlun Mountains in Qinghai and Northern Tibet.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_re ... ang_(1937)

[This is just a small sample of China-related 'small' wars, often involving foreign troops...but Battlegoat likes Wiki, so its only source
provided.]

* * Tibet vs China (Qinghai), 1930. - war could break out at anytime in 1930-40s, especially if China & Japan are at war.

The roots of the conflict lay in the disputed border between Tibetan government territory and the territory of the Republic of China, with the Tibetan government in principle claiming areas inhabited by Tibetans in neighboring Chinese provinces (Qinghai, Sichuan) which were in fact ruled by Chinese warlords loosely aligned with the Republic; in the tense relationship between the 13th Dalai Lama and the 9th Panchen Lama, which led to the latter's exile in Chinese-controlled territory. Nyarong Monastery in June 1930, the chieftain of Beri responded by requesting help from local Chinese warlord Liu Wenhui, the governor of Sichuan. Liu's forces quickly took control of the area. The Dhargyä monks in turn requested the aid of the Tibetan government, whose forces entered Beri and drove Liu Wenhui's army out. Over the next few years the Tibetans repeatedly attacked Liu Wenhui's forces, but were defeated several times. In 1932 Tibet made the decision to expand the war into Qinghai against Ma Bufang, the reasons for which have speculated upon by many historians.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_War

* * Paraguay vs Brazil, 1899-1903.
The Treaty of Petrópolis, signed on November 11, 1903, ended tensions between Bolivia and Brazil over the then-Bolivian territory of Acre (today the Acre state), a desirable territory during the contemporary rubber boom.

The Treaty of Petrópolis, drafted by Brazilian foreign affairs minister José Paranhos, Baron of Rio Branco,[2] gave Brazil the territory of Acre (191,000 km²), in exchange for over 3,000 km² of Brazilian territory between the Abunâ and Madeira rivers, a monetary payment of two million British pounds, paid in two installments, and a pledge of a rail-link between the Bolivian city of Riberalta and the Brazilian city of Porto Velho.

* * Bolivia vs Paraguay, Grand Chaco War, 1932-1935 - war almost began again in 1937.
The Chaco War (1932–1935) (Spanish: Guerra del Chaco, Guarani: Cháko Ñorairõ[9]) was fought between Bolivia and Paraguay over control of the northern part of the Gran Chaco region (known as Chaco Boreal) of South America, which was thought to be rich in oil.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_War

* * Venezuela vs The Netherlands (1908).....could be renewed anytime in the late-1930s or '40s, especially if The Netherlands is at war with Japan, Germany or another major power.
In 1908 a dispute broke out between the Netherlands and Cipriano Castro's Venezuela on the grounds of the harbouring of refugees in Curaçao. With their overwhelming naval superiority, the Dutch enforced a blockade on Venezuela's ports. A few days later, General Castro left for Berlin, nominally for a surgical operation. In his absence, an uprising in Caracas overthrew his regime. This effectively ended the war with the Netherlands. It was all about Venezuelan nationalism and [/i]machismo[/i].

* * Portugal - Brazil - Paraguay - Argentina, the "Guarani War" - resumption could be begun anytime in 1930s-40s.
The Guarani War (Spanish: Guerra Guaranítica, Portuguese: Guerra Guaranítica) of 1756, also called the War of the Seven Reductions, took place between the Guaraní tribes of seven Jesuit Reductions and joint Spanish-Portuguese forces. It was a result of the Treaty of Madrid, which set a line of demarcation between Spanish and Portuguese colonial territory in South America.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaran%C3%AD_War

* * Mexico vs Guatemala, 1957 - this could begin at any time over Guatemalan claims over the Yucatan province....if taken by Guatemalan forces, it should end the war (not be one of those AI drag-out forever wars!
Since November 1956 the Guatemalan and Mexican governments had quarreled over the crossing of the Guatemalan border by Mexican citizens. On November 8, 1957, the Guatemalan Foreign Minister, Adolfo Orantes, sent a diplomatic letter to the Mexican government which detailed the complaints of the Guatemalan government. Orantes said that Mexican shrimping boats were frequently crossing the nautical border into Guatemala to fish.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico–Guatemala_conflict

* * Guatemala vs British Guayana (Belize) - long standing claim by Guatemala....great for a 1930s small war....one maybe which other Central American states also become involved against 'British imperialism'.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belizean–G ... al_dispute
-------------
Just a small sampling, hardly touching some of the post-1919-20 Russian Civil War period involving the USSR, or other conflicts in Europe and Asia (involving China, Japan, USSR, Thailand, etc.) - especially Eastern Europe (Hungary, Yugoslavia, Poland, etc.). And, this presumes the Russo-Finish War (1940) is already in SR-1936 [Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War].
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by vahadar »

Zuikaku wrote:And what about situation which happened in my game:
Japan overrunned China and is in stalemate with UK over India/ Burma
30-40% of the time its China overrunning Japan. Seems the fate of the asian war is decided pretty early, if Japan cant advance west of manchuria and reach Peiping, it will loose slowly. In my current game, China has removed Japan from mainland includind korea, annexed manchukuo (but isnt attacking mengjiang).
China succeded probably with those elite infantry (too overpowered imho those infantry, as Siam i just produce this having purchase the japanese version and i conquered 1/5 of the world, some tanks units in comparison are ridiculously weak. elite infantry should also cost much more to maintain)
Zuikaku wrote: Germany annexed France but german AI just don't know to invade UK
In the dozen games i played i saw only once germany landing nearby london, UK was almost out of units (and anyway was out of military good all the time by 1940) so i had to provide tens of thousands of military goods, oil, and around 20 cheap BT2 and BT5 tanks as Siam to help UK get rid of Germany on its lands. Otherwise yes i never see Germany invading UK.
Its like Denmark, most of the time Germany cant reach Copenhagen area because it is an island. I saw Denmark being conquered only once.
Norway was never invaded in my games.
Zuikaku wrote: But none of them sues for peace, not even an USSR who is on the knees and verge of destruction. Plese do something about endless AI vs. AI wars, it just doesn't make any sense!!
This is the main problem i see in the Supreme Ruler series. It was good for Global Crisis, since it is like apocalypse :) but for CW or this 1936 it makes no sense. And it makes the game boring in the end, because of the dumb AI not capable of mounting a proper attack and sending all its units to die one by one :) (like all games before hehe)
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Inzann »

In my game Germany and its allies have taken totally taken over France, Denmark, Norway and USSR all the way into siberia (where they now are stopped by supplies). The norweigan conquest was made possible because I allowed them transit through my land as Sweden. They haven't even touched UK yet, just occasional naval battles but no troops sent to their mainland. When GE and IT decalred war on USA they just sent a bunch of warships one by one that got wrecked by the US navy sitting there waiting. :P
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

vahadar wrote:
30-40% of the time its China overrunning Japan. Seems the fate of the asian war is decided pretty early, if Japan cant advance west of manchuria and reach Peiping, it will loose slowly. In my current game, China has removed Japan from mainland includind korea, annexed manchukuo (but isnt attacking mengjiang).
China succeded probably with those elite infantry (too overpowered imho those infantry, as Siam i just produce this having purchase the japanese version and i conquered 1/5 of the world, some tanks units in comparison are ridiculously weak. elite infantry should also cost much more to maintain)


It's not problem with strong elite units (they shoul'd be). The problem is AI which tends to build only strongest, most expensive units. Something was changed in the last update, but i still didn't tested production, so if you know something more....

vahadar wrote:

This is the main problem i see in the Supreme Ruler series. It was good for Global Crisis, since it is like apocalypse :) but for CW or this 1936 it makes no sense. And it makes the game boring in the end, because of the dumb AI not capable of mounting a proper attack and sending all its units to die one by one :) (like all games before hehe)


It's not funny. Its a tragic thing! And complete disaster of diplomatic engine as far as I am concerned. There is no more dumb and unrealistic thing than when every single war is fought until total destruction of one side... even if it lasts for 40 years.... |O

BGs, that is just not good, being WaD or not!! |O
Please teach AI everything!
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Balthagor
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Balthagor »

I've pointed George to this thread, I'll let him discuss the issue.
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

Balthagor wrote:I've pointed George to this thread, I'll let him discuss the issue.
Thanks ,Balth, hope he will do something about this...
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Zuikaku
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Re: AI vs. AI wars - sandbox

Post by Zuikaku »

Regarding unit production - I can now confirm that AI is now building more mixed variety of units (especially Soviet AI). There is only one problem - motorized engineers. They are too strong and AI is just obssessed with them!! |O

And another question, since USSR AI is building variety of troops and german builds only the best - is that programmed AI behaviour (if it is, it's good), or just a coincidence? Does different regions have different build policies?
Please teach AI everything!
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