Germany 1936

General discussion related to the game goes here.

Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

What got me back into SR was that game "Making History: the Calm and the Storm." Got it for like $2 on Steam and had a good time, but eventually realized the economic balance is pretty much lacking.

So I've played a couple startups as Germany 1936 Campaign all Normal difficulty, Bond issuing allowed, but otherwise, pretty much all default settings. I'm intrigued to play this all the way through and see what happens. Clearly Germany is one of the relatively easier positions on the map in 1936, but I'd guess that US is easier and possibly USSR too.

In my first play through, I pretty much just figured out the UI and basic game balance. Played for about 5 or 7 hours then invaded Czech in about 1937 with very little planning and organization. They were putting up a good fight, but then I hadn't organized my units nor done any of the buildup really necessary.

Second playthrough, I was far more methodical. After getting ministers all locked out and commodity settings, taxes, etc. all set. I went through all of my facilities to identify low supply ones for the commodities I produce excess, turning off the ones with the lowest supply and/or ones on hexes where they were a waste (e.g., an oil resource hex with an industrial complex nearly full of junk like coal power plants, etc.). I did a lot of trading to get enough of the stuff I wasn't self-sufficient on (pretty much everything except coal and metals). I focused on the early game techs that seemed to help economy and also the techs to open up my better starting units. Didn't build any units or military fabs and didn't deploy my military. Once I had some nice stockpiles of stuff, I started to scrap excess stuff, and then eventually build more stuff too.

I'd say I was doing real good on building a strong advanced tech Germany right up to about April 1937 when I guess I got a bit impatient and started to undermine my progress. I deployed everything and realized what a huge mess that is, re-reserved it all in one barracks near center of country (Leipzig). and started a massive building project (military fabs, research centers, industrial goods, agriculture, timber, etc). I had like 4 billion in my treasury so I figured it wouldn't be a problem, so I started deploying my units from that one central base in sets of 7 then spreading them out on roads so I could build up stacks, ostensibly with the goal of having them locked into nice combined arms battle group "Divisions."

I decided to go back to square one and archive those saves though as I think I bit off way more production and building than I should have at once and it just didn't feel optimal.

So this has raised many questions for me that I'd love to hear about from you guys.

1. Go for Poland as early as possible or go with an historical timeline?

2. Build units from the beginning or wait for better techs? The starting units seem rather crap, though admittedly I haven't played enough to know how relatively strong they are compared to other countries units. With a hard attack value of like 1 or 2 the Panzer 1 seems to be a joke? Also the biplane air units? Worth using or try to have better monoplane designs before going to war?

3. Worry about trying to fine-tune and optimize Germany infrastructure and economy or just take over more land as quickly as possible and hope that the spoils make up for the lost efficiency?

4. Italy: ally or target?

5. Navy: Type I or Type VII subs or wait to build more till techs allow even better ones?

6. Overall organization of army and army stacks: I was leaning toward organizing my existing 1936 army into roughly four types of combined arms stacks:
(A) Front line infantry comprising: Infantry+Brandenburg+Pak AT unit+an arty + an AA (one of the slower types)
(B) Support/Bombardment group (positioned behind a screen of four of five of the preceding type): 1 AA, 3 of the longer range (30km) arty, two supply trucks and a pionere (7 is the stacking limit right?)
(C) Mobile warfare groups (divisions or whatever they would be): 1 Panzer, 1 half-track, 2 Mounted Infantry, maybe an arty and a AA but they all seem to be quite a bit slower than the tanks, mech infantry and mobile infantry
(D) Recon: generally single units

Are there any particular units that are better than others in this mixture of stuff Germany starts with in 1936?

7. Navy, I was following an organization about like this: Type II subs are set to patrol back and forth near German territorial waters as solo units. Couple stacks of the V150 patrol boats set on either side of the Danish peninsula, and a couple stacks of the torpedo and motor boats. Type I and Type VII subs set to patrol out farther to intedict any would be invasions. The surface ships broken into three battle groups each with one or two escorts and about equal number of cap ships. I anticipate that trying to do ANYTHING remotely offensive with these surface ships once WWII ensues would quickly lead to their demise, so the longer-term plan was to build up the sub fleet and use those to pick on the Royal Navy and other allied navies. Once Europe was conquered begin researching toward carriers and maybe by 1946 or thereabouts have enough stuff to set some carrier groups out to consider invading England or something.

8. Refueling land units with the gas can symbol: I noticed during one of my protracted unit setting up periods that I had a pionere unit that was out of gas. I sent a supply truck over to him but it didn't seem to do anything. Manual seems to indicate that these guys just draw supply from the landscape?

9. Any other overall suggestions on playing Germany in a not too ahistorical but somewhat "smarter" than historical manner?
Last edited by Anthropoid on Feb 02 2015, edited 1 time in total.
MrRipper

Re: Germany 1936

Post by MrRipper »

I would suggest to stop worrying and just go on a rampage.

Wars in ultimate are like this. Take city, camp city and let ai go like lemmings to your troops and then blitzkrieg. Not very realistic, but most efficient.

If you go historical, eventually you will get cloose to history, but player doesnt do much. Ally with Japan/Itay happens automatic and stuff just by events. You attacked Czech but you would get 80% of Czech if you just waited and prolly no loyalty issues, but i am not sure.
MrRipper

Re: Germany 1936

Post by MrRipper »

Its like this.. If you protect the cities (entrench troops there) it wont invade by itself. So if you entrenched some troops on sea ports/piers theres no worry for a naval invasion.
SentosKarum
Warrant Officer
Posts: 35
Joined: Feb 01 2015
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by SentosKarum »

About the only drawback of playing Germany 1936 is that the damn austrian doesn't die off naturally for the player.
MrRipper

Re: Germany 1936

Post by MrRipper »

SentosKarum wrote:About the only drawback of playing Germany 1936 is that the damn austrian doesn't die off naturally for the player.
It did for me in 0.26. You need to follow history 100% and do all those events in time.
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

MrRipper wrote:I would suggest to stop worrying and just go on a rampage.

Wars in ultimate are like this. Take city, camp city and let ai go like lemmings to your troops and then blitzkrieg. Not very realistic, but most efficient.

If you go historical, eventually you will get cloose to history, but player doesnt do much. Ally with Japan/Itay happens automatic and stuff just by events. You attacked Czech but you would get 80% of Czech if you just waited and prolly no loyalty issues, but i am not sure.
:-) So in the first sentence you say "Go on a rampage" . . . a "tactic" I've never had much luck with in any SR games I've played, even when I had substantial advantage; I seem to get the most bang for my buck and come out of wars in quick, victorious and not-too-mussed-up-hair when I carefully plan and analyze and methodically use pause and move each individual stack and unit exactly where it is needed / supposed to be as part of my grand plan.

I admit; I have done 'rampage' warmonger play in some strategy games from time to time. Mostly in various incarnations of Civilization. But it isn't my preferred style. I'm much more of an analytical strategy gamer. I enjoy them as an exercise in determining the most efficient path from A to B to C.

But then in the final section of your post, you seem to be suggesting that "while it might be a bit more boring, going historical has advantages such as getting Austria "for free" and getting 80% of Czech for loyalty lost.

In real history, NSDAP-ruled Germany used a combination of intimidation, diplomatic guile and hyperbole ("three and a half million Germans oppressed in Czechoslovakia . . .") to get Chamberlain, Daladier and the Czechs to "sign off" on their annexation of the Sudetenland. I don't think Sudentenland is 80% of Czechoslovakia at that time, probably only about 15% geographically, though I do believe it was one of if not the most valuable industrial area of the country. All this was done as of September October 1938, and I have to say, I have yet to see that happen, though I don't know if it was because I didn't play long enough or I didn't fulfill all my "campaign objectives" on time.

I wasn't familiar with any of the details, but from reading the wiki page for German occupation of Czechoslovakia, it sounds like as early as Jan 1939, Czechoslovakia had been effectively "defeated" by virtue of having its Sudetenland border territories handed to the Germans by British and French signing of the Munich Agreement, and then also a series of moves by other ethnic/national groups (Poles, Hungarians, Ukrainians) which carved off other little chunks on the northern southern and eastern borders of the country. I get the impression that, by the time the Germans actually invaded and occupied what was left of Czechoslovakia in 1939, it wasn't able to put up much of a fight? Germany occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia (and partitioned significant portions of it into new territories, Bohemia and Moravia) at around the same time they invaded Poland in Fall 1939.

ADDIT: so what the heck? "N A Z I" is a "bad word" that is auto censored on this board??
MrRipper

Re: Germany 1936

Post by MrRipper »

Devs said they might loose some of the tight restrictions on the campaigns. What i basicly have to say is dont declare war. If you want to get all events. I think war with Poland happen automatic, cant remember anymore. I dont think it was exactly same time as rl cant remember. If not automatic you get an event your expected to declare war. Lotsa things in 36 feels unrealistic to me compared to what im used to in another game. But you first get 15% of Czech and then abt 65% just before war with Poland.

About fighting wars... Just try it. You will see your best off in putting city full of rappid fire inf like Brandenburger. Then notice the path which ai comes to you. Make sure they hit city. Then next to it more rapid fire inf and after that arty if you want. AA you dont rly need.. Thats one of reasons i dont like the 36 in this game. I just played Germany to test the campaign.

If you go offensive, make sure enemy arty hit tanks. Stuff from city you attack with tanks and then kill arty and stuff as fast as possible. Enemy arty camps like in SR2020 till all other troops die. So as you can read i just do like you.

I only mean if you entrench 1 inf on city borders enemy wont invade you. So you first take 1 city. Wait a bit till you see a lemmings run. Ten you need to kill them as fast as possible. Try to let no one escape. Use planes, fast inf and retreat to city again.. Just try and you will see this is most efficient. Then you have ratios like 1000 kills vs 5 losses with 5 losses being planes.

You could also let ai do it and for Germany its just win. You just have far more losses. None can compete with Germany, well USA maybe but they are far and stay out of war till atleast 1941. Then invade S-A and USA is peace of cake.
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22082
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Balthagor »

There are fixes coming in the next update for the Germany campaign. Just FYI. I've been reviewing all the objectives to make sure they can appear if conditions are right.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

Ah, I didn't know you guys were still doing updates!

Well hey, one thing I'd suggest you look at: the Messerschmit Bf 109. I had thought it was a bit weird that, by say 1938, the best fighter/interceptor I seemed to be able to build was an He-51, an aircraft which had been pretty badly proven to be inadequate in Spain in 1936-37 if memory serves.

The prototype of the Bf 109 made it's first flight in 1935, and it was introduced into operational status in 1937. As far as I know, it was the primary fighter used more-or-less from the start of European WWII, though other planes were no doubt also used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messersch ... al_history

Now I may have failed to notice, but it seemed to me that, the Bf 110 was the first monoplane fighter I could get. I think I was able to start building those by about late 1937? maybe not until 1938 though. I haven't played the game enough (nor do I know the history that well) but you guys might want to have a look again at the tech tree, starting techs, and such and make sure that the way things start out doesn't make it virtually impossible for the human player to achieve what was in real history: namely that the Bf 109 be produced in sufficient numbers (maybe at least 12 or 24?) to be the "main" fighter in use by time of invasion of Poland September 1939.
User avatar
Zuikaku
General
Posts: 2394
Joined: Feb 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Zuikaku »

Anthropoid wrote:Ah, I didn't know you guys were still doing updates!

Well hey, one thing I'd suggest you look at: the Messerschmit Bf 109. I had thought it was a bit weird that, by say 1938, the best fighter/interceptor I seemed to be able to build was an He-51, an aircraft which had been pretty badly proven to be inadequate in Spain in 1936-37 if memory serves.

The prototype of the Bf 109 made it's first flight in 1935, and it was introduced into operational status in 1937. As far as I know, it was the primary fighter used more-or-less from the start of European WWII, though other planes were no doubt also used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messersch ... al_history

Now I may have failed to notice, but it seemed to me that, the Bf 110 was the first monoplane fighter I could get. I think I was able to start building those by about late 1937? maybe not until 1938 though. I haven't played the game enough (nor do I know the history that well) but you guys might want to have a look again at the tech tree, starting techs, and such and make sure that the way things start out doesn't make it virtually impossible for the human player to achieve what was in real history: namely that the Bf 109 be produced in sufficient numbers (maybe at least 12 or 24?) to be the "main" fighter in use by time of invasion of Poland September 1939.
Bf-110 is also way overpowered in air attack ratings compared to Bf-109...
Please teach AI everything!
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

Zuikaku wrote:Bf-110 is also way overpowered in air attack ratings compared to Bf-109...
Yeah, I think you are correct. It appears that Metal Alloy Airframes (which Germany can research at start of 1936 campaign) along with "Avionics Technology Improvements (which Germany can research after completing "Applied Radio Detection") opens up the Bf 110C and the Bf 109. (Skipping the Bf 110B for some reason). So, if you bother to look up what it takes, you can most definitely be building Bf 109s aplenty by 1937. So it would seem that my call for the tech tree to be reviewed is not necessary and merely reflects my own failure to do so (or perhaps the lack of a comprehensive tech tree summary anywhere that doesn't require navigating up and downstream to find the gem unit designs! :x :P )

The Bf 110C outclasses the Bf 109 in the most important respects: faster, longer range, better attack strength in low and mid-air combat, and identical defense values in all contexts. Only downside is each squadron costs 79t of mil goods versus 29t for Bf109, and perhaps slightly more annual maintenance.

The actual combat statistics in-game are:
Bf 110C
Range 2410km
Speed 504 km/h
Profile 25
Low Air 6
Mid Air 7
Air Defense 5

Bf 109
Range 648km
Speed 440 km/h
Profile 30
Low Air 4
Mid Air 5
Air Defense 5

So the Bf 110 packs a bigger punch, is faster, has a longer range, although it is slightly less "stealthy" (25 versus 30). Longer range yes . . . I believe that was one of the 110's selling points, but I think some of these numbers might need to be revisited.

I am not an expert, but it is difficult to reconcile these stats with the fact that that the Bf 109 model and its variants were the most produced fighter design ever in all of human history (about 35 frames built I think). It was an extremely effective airplane, flown by man aces including the top fighter ace of all time, Erich Harttman.

Certainly it seems true that the Bf 110 was a more heavily armed and armored craft. But should that automatically translate into higher Air combat values? The game engine doesn't seem to take account of things like Agility for fighter aircraft so it seems that perhaps the Bf110 and Bf109 need some rebalancing?

ADDIT: in particular, the range and speed of the Bf 110C seems way high compared to what I'm reading and if anything I believe the 109 (which was a smaller lighter armed craft) should be faster.
In late 1938, the DB 601 B-1 engines became available. With the new engine, the design teams removed the radiators under the engine nacelles and replaced them with water/glycol radiators for the C-series airframes onwards, placing them under the wing just outboard of each nacelle, otherwise similar in installation, appearance and function to those on the Bf 109E. With the DB 601 engine, the Bf 110's maximum speed increased to a respectable 541 km/h (336 mph) with a range of approximately 1,094 km (680 mi). A small oil cooler and airscoop remained under each engine nacelle for the remainder of the Bf 110's production run.

So this is basically telling us the Bf 110C should have a speed in the 500km/h ballpark and a range in the 1094km ballpark. Speed of 504 in game then seems about right, but range of 2410km is too high by a factor of about 2x

First conceived in the latter half of 1939, the D-series of Bf 110s was targeted to have improvements meant to increase its range. The initial D-series version, the Bf 110D-1 was designed to omit the twin MG FF nose-mount cannon for weight saving and added a large, streamlined 1,050 litre (277 U.S. gallon) integral ventral fuel tank built into the fuselage, which required a substantially sized, conformal streamlined ventral fuselage fairing extending from halfway back under the nose to the rear of the cockpit glazing, inspiring the nickname Dackelbauch (dachshund's belly).[8] The D-1 was also set up to accept a pair of fin-equipped 900 litre (238 U.S. gallon) drop tanks, one under each wing, increasing the total fuel capacity to 4,120 litres (1,088 U.S. gallons).
The Bf 109 was used throughout the war and was still an effective weapons system as late as 1944, although inferior to say the FW 190. Here is the wiki intro on the Bf 109:
The Messerschmitt Bf 109, sometimes incorrectly called the Me 109 (most often by Allied pilots and aircrew), was a German World War II fighter aircraft designed by Willy Messerschmitt and Robert Lusser during the early to mid-1930s.[2] The "Bf 109" Designation was issued by the German ministry of aviation and represents the developing company Bayrische Flugzeugwerke (at which the engineer Messerschmidt led the development of the plane) and a rather arbitrary figure. It was one of the first truly modern fighters of the era, including such features as all-metal monocoque construction, a closed canopy, a retractable landing gear, and was powered by a liquid-cooled, inverted-V12 aero engine.[2]

The Bf 109 first saw operational service during the Spanish Civil War and was still in service at the dawn of the jet age at the end of World War II, during which time it was the backbone of the Luftwaffe's fighter force.[3] From the end of 1941 the Bf 109 was supplemented by the Focke-Wulf Fw 190.

Originally conceived as an interceptor, later models were developed to fulfill multiple tasks, serving as bomber escort, fighter-bomber, day-, night-, all-weather fighter, ground-attack aircraft, and as reconnaissance aircraft. It was supplied to and operated by several states during World War II, and served with several countries for many years after the war. The Bf 109 was the most produced fighter aircraft in history, with a total of 33,984 airframes produced from 1936 up to April 1945.[1][3]

The Bf 109 was flown by the three top-scoring German fighter aces of World War II, who claimed 928 victories among them while flying with Jagdgeschwader 52, mainly on the Eastern Front, as well as by Hans-Joachim Marseille, the highest scoring German ace in the North African Campaign,[4] scoring 158 victories. It was also flown by several other aces from Germany's allies, notably Finn Ilmari Juutilainen, the highest scoring non-German ace on the type with 58 victories flying the Bf 109G, and pilots from Italy, Romania, Croatia, Bulgaria and Hungary. Through constant development, the Bf 109 remained competitive with the latest Allied fighter aircraft until the end of the war.[5]
With respect to the Bf 109 speed, here is a section describing the design specs:
The fighter needed to have a top speed of 400 km/h (250 mph) at 6,000 m (19,690 ft), to be maintained for 20 minutes, while having a total flight duration of 90 minutes. The critical altitude of 6,000 metres was to be reached in no more than 17 minutes, and the fighter was to have an operational ceiling of 10,000 metres.[7]
There is a section in the Bf 109 Wiki page that lists the specifications for the Bf 109G: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messersch ... 109_G-6.29
Maximum speed: 640 km/h (398 mph) at 6,300 m (20,669 ft)
Cruise speed: 590 km/h (365 mph) at 6,000 m (19,680 ft)
Range: 850 km (528 mi) 1,000 km (621 mi) with droptank
So it seems the Bf 109 might be a bit slow and short in range, though I do not know how much more advanced the G variant was compared to the one represented in game as "Bf 109."

In contrast, this is what Wiki tells me about the Bf 110:
The Messerschmitt Bf 110, often (erroneously) called Me 110,[2] was a twin-engine heavy fighter (Zerstörer—German for "Destroyer") developed in Nazi Germany in the 1930s and used by the Luftwaffe and others during World War II. Hermann Göring was a proponent of the Bf 110. It was armed with two 20 mm cannons, four 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 17 machine guns, and one 7.92 mm (.312 in) MG 15 machine gun or twin MG 81Zs for defence. Development work on an improved type to replace the Bf 110, the Messerschmitt Me 210 began before the war started, but its teething troubles resulted in the Bf 110 soldiering on until the end of the war in various roles, alongside its replacements, the Me 210 and the Me 410.

The Bf 110 served with considerable success in the early campaigns, the Polish, Norwegian and Battle of France. The Bf 110's lack of agility in the air was its primary weakness. This flaw was exposed during the Battle of Britain, when some Bf 110-equipped units were withdrawn from the battle after very heavy losses and redeployed as night fighters, a role to which the aircraft was well suited. The Bf 110 enjoyed a successful period following the Battle of Britain as an air superiority fighter and strike aircraft in other theatres.

During the Balkans Campaign, North African Campaign and on the Eastern Front, it rendered valuable ground support to the German Army as a potent fighter-bomber (Jagdbomber or Jabo). Later in the war, it was developed into a formidable night fighter, becoming the major night-fighting aircraft of the Luftwaffe. Most of the German night fighter aces flew the Bf 110 at some point during their combat careers, and the top night fighter ace of all time, Major Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, flew it exclusively and claimed 121 victories in 164 combat missions.[3]
MrRipper

Re: Germany 1936

Post by MrRipper »

Thats alot of text about interceptors which are not being used in game by AI.
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

MrRipper wrote:Thats alot of text about interceptors which are not being used in game by AI.
What are you saying? That when you play a nation other than Germany, the AI German region never builds or uses these particular interceptors? Or never builds or uses interceptors at all?

Or are you saying something else?

I realize that walls of text are a foible of mine, but I believe it is sometimes warranted. I'm trying to be constructive and offer the developers concrete suggestions for improving the game, i.e., changing some of the specifications on a couple of the German interceptors. Providing enough factual references to convince them that their abstraction of historical technologies isn't quite right is the point.

At the end of the day, it is up to them, Battlegoats. It is their game, you and I just purchased EULA's. They know what all these numbers do far better than anyone else so maybe the difference between the Bf 110 and Bf 109 stats is not, in terms of game play, sufficient to warrant any changes.
User avatar
Zuikaku
General
Posts: 2394
Joined: Feb 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Zuikaku »

History has proven that basic Bf-109(E) was superior fighter to Bf-110(B). So, Bf-109 air attack ratings should be 6(low) and 6 (medium). Bf-110(B) should be 5(low) and 4(medium). More firepower does not mean better air attack, since all these guns are useless if you are having hard time bringing the target into the gunsights.
Please teach AI everything!
User avatar
Anthropoid
Colonel
Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
Human: Yes

Re: Germany 1936

Post by Anthropoid »

Zuikaku wrote:History has proven that basic Bf-109(E) was superior fighter to Bf-110(B). So, Bf-109 air attack ratings should be 6(low) and 6 (medium). Bf-110(B) should be 5(low) and 4(medium). More firepower does not mean better air attack, since all these guns are useless if you are having hard time bringing the target into the gunsights.
Yep. I concur.

Also the Bf 110 should have range reduced to about 1090 and Bf 109 should perhaps have speed increased to ~500.
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion - SRUltimate”