Industrial/Civilian Goods

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Beans
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Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by Beans »

Hi, I was wondering what Industrial/Civilian goods do for you economy. I know if you don't produce enough of them, its hurts your nation. I just don't know how it hurts the nation. Are there restrictions/ negative effects? Thanks
GIJoe597
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by GIJoe597 »

I could type something simple like they keep your people happy, give them a place to work and allow you to build on the map.

However, I am not in a simple mood at the moment.



Consumer Goods

- Any tangible commodity produced and subsequently purchased to satisfy the current wants and perceived needs of the buyer.

- Merchandise or other items of common or daily use, ordinarily bought by individuals or households for private consumption.

- Consumer goods are the end result of production and manufacturing and are what a consumer will see on the store shelf.

Examples
  • Jewelry
  • Bicycles
  • Refrigerators
  • Televisions
  • Computers
  • Automobiles
These are the things your Population wants/needs to live their daily life. Your citizens like being able to purchase things, it makes them happy and raises the Domestic Approval Rate (DAR). It also contributes to your Treasury via Tax Income from Sales.


Industrial Goods

- Machinery, manufacturing plants, materials, and other goods or component parts for use or consumption by other industries or firms. Demand for industrial goods is usually based on the demand for consumer goods they help produce (called derived demand).

Examples
  • Fixed equipment and machinery
  • Tools
  • Instruments
They are the things used in the production of Consumer Goods. They are used by Small Business and Corporations as they produce the end product.

Industrial Goods are used when any facility is built on the map. Additionally, some facilities will also require Military Goods, like an Air Base for example.



The reason I type the things above is because in the game almost everything is related to something else.

Industrial Goods require the following Resources to make 1 ton;
  • Petroleum
  • Electricity
  • Coal
  • Metal Ore

Consumer Goods require the following Resources to make 1 ton;
  • Electricity
  • Petroleum
  • Metal Ore
  • Industry Goods
  • Rubber
As you can see, if you increase production of Consumer Goods, it has an impact on Industrial Goods.

Increasing production of any item has additional impacts across the spectrum of resources.


Taxes

Taxes also play a role in this via Income and Jobs(Unemployment). You are asking, Joe, why do you bring up taxes when I am asking about Production?

When you make a change to your Tax percentages it has an effect on the amount of people working and the number of jobs available. A simple example taken directly from the manual; "lowering corporate tax rates will stimulate additional corporate growth". This means the ***"behind the scenes"*** employment/services are ramping up. This leads to an increase in worker demand (Decrease in Unemployment).

***Things happen that we cannot see on the map very well. When you increase Infrastructure spending that means more trucks on the road, better maintained highways, etc.



As more workers enter the work force your demand for Consumer Goods will increase. More people working also equals a rising GDP/c. The higher your GDP/C the more income your citizens have, the more income your citizens have the more Commodities (Consumer Goods) they want to purchase.

It can be a double edged sword at times, because as you reach full employment (0% Unemployment) the salary the workers demand rises. A simple way I use to show this is as so;

Bob works on a company production line with 5 people. He works an 8 hour a day job, 40 hours a week. The powers that be lower Corporate Taxes. The owner of the company where Bob works decides to increase production. They buy 5 new "machines" which should double their output and profit. However, there are no people to fill those job/work those machines. Poor Bob now has to work his "machine" and another during the day. These means he is now doing the work of two people. He decides he should have a pay raise. Which increases production cost and leads to less profit for the company.

The point is, Unemployment can affect all costs across the board. Even those Consumer and Industry Goods factories. Maybe I should have just stuck with simple. I dunno.
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Beans
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by Beans »

Ok, thanks for the reply. I understand now
GIJoe597
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by GIJoe597 »

You are welcome. Sorry I got carried away.
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lorddrakenwode
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by lorddrakenwode »

Still in a detail-oriented mood? Because I have an interesting question for you:

Does the production price of Consumer Goods displayed in the production window take into account the production price of the Industrial Goods (and all the other resources, for that matter) consumed in its production, or not?
GIJoe597
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by GIJoe597 »

From my experience it does. This is why prices change for various items, including unit maintenance costs. The internal calculations are taking current numbers into consideration. As I typed in a different thread, I first noticed this back in 2008. A small test you can do now that only takes a few moments to see how the game is using current data is this;

Start a game with a large country, un-reserve an inf unit, select unit and open the Technical Readout. Let the game run at fastest speed, and watch the Annual Maintenance cost change as days pass. The game calculates the cost of the resources which are required to maintain the unit, Military Goods and such, on a daily basis. It does this for all resources/units in the game. Incidentally, the Build price changes also to reflect the current cost. A unit which costs 10 million to build in 1950 may cost 12 million in 1951 as production prices (resources, labor, etc) rise.


If memory serves I once let the game run on fastest setting, while purchasing all the oil in the world. I was on very easy for Economy as I wanted to test something. As Petro moved from Market Availability - Excellent to Poor, the price of the items which used Petro rose also. I was able to get the Petro price as well as Consumer Goods, Industrial Goods and Military Goods to increase on the World Market.

That cost in the production window also takes into consideration GDP/c and Unemployment percentage. This is a much grayer area to me as I cannot pin it down to anything close to specifics, but you can indeed see effects in game as GDP/C rises and Unemployment drops.
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lorddrakenwode
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by lorddrakenwode »

That's fascinating. I didn't realize that all the unit prices dynamically updated like that.

That even further deepens the next logical question that sprang to my mind: How many times are we being overcharged for everything?

I first tried to get answers about this in regard to Supreme Ruler 2020, and it seems the same in Ultimate. I noticed that, in the relevant budget tab, "Production" expenses would be equal to Agriculture tons produced times production price, plus Coal tons produced times production price, and so on, summing all the individual resources multiplied by their individual unit production prices.

However, if the price of coal, for example, is figured into electric power, then you're paying for the coal twice: Once when you produce the coal, and once again for its component in electric power production. Considering consumer goods, there are many different resource expenses included, several of which have their own resource expenses as well, and so it stacks rapidly.

If unit expenses include military goods prices, that opens a whole new level of overcharging. Perhaps this is the best way to do a thought experiment on the subject. Imagine the following:
We're building military unit X, which requires 100 tons of Military Goods.
Military Goods cost $20,000 per ton.

Now, here's a question. Will the price of Unit X be simply $2M? From the surface looking I've done, I don't think so. Units seem to have their own base price aspect, and cost more than simply the price of the goods needed to build them. That's fine.

So we figure for the sake of argument that the unit has a base build price of $2M, and the goods cost $2M, so the price you see for the unit on the build panel will be $4M. Make sense?

Now, if you think about it, when you look at your expenses panel, you will see $2M for the production of 100 tons of Military Goods. You will see 100 tons of Military Goods consumed in unit production. You will see $4M for the production of the unit. Total expenses: $6M, and one Unit X to show for it.

So you're actually being charged $2M for the base price of the unit, $2M in the manufacture of the Military Goods, and $2M AGAIN for the use of the Military Goods.

The same concept applies to any derived resource, and should be not too difficult to extrapolate.

I have been assured by the developers that "everything is counted correctly," but do you see my question here? Ultimately, the game obviously works around this, from a practical standpoint, or we wouldn't put so many hours into it. However, it seems to me, we're being charged as many as five times over for each ton of coal, getting mined, then made into electric power, which goes into industrial goods, which go into military goods, which go into a unit, and that is to say nothing of all the other resources.

Let me know what you think of this. I'm interested.
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by GIJoe597 »

I do not have an issue with what you call over charges. This is why; If I go to the store and purchase a bottle of shampoo, it is priced to include all previous expenses.


Raw Materials
New shampoos are initially created by cosmetic chemists in the laboratory. These scientists begin by determining what characteristics the shampoo formula will have. They must decide on aesthetic features such as how thick it should be, what color it will be, and what it will smell like. They also consider performance attributes, such as how well it cleans, what the foam looks like, and how irritating it will be. Consumer testing often helps determine what these characteristics should be.

Once the features of the shampoo are identified, a formula is created in the laboratory. These initial batches are made in small beakers using various ingredients. In the personal care industry, nearly all of the ingredients that can be used are classified by the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrance Association (CTFA) in the governmentally approved collection known as the International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients (INCI). The more important ingredients in shampoo formulations are water, detergents, foam boosters, thickeners, conditioning agents, preservatives, modifiers, and special additives.

Water
The primary ingredient in all shampoos is water, typically making up about 70-80% of the entire formula. Deionized water, which is specially treated to remove various particles and ions, is used in shampoos. The source of the water can be underground wells, lakes, or rivers.

Detergents
The next most abundant ingredients in shampoos are the primary detergents. These materials, also known as surfactants, are the cleansing ingredients in shampoos. Surfactants are surface active ingredients, meaning they can interact with a surface. The chemical nature of a surfactant allows it to surround and trap oily materials from surfaces. One portion of the molecule is oil compatible (soluble) while the other is water soluble. When a shampoo is applied to hair or textiles, the oil soluble portion aligns with the oily materials while the water soluble portion aligns in the water layer. When a number of surfactant molecules line up like this, they form a structure known as a micelle. This micelle has oil trapped in the middle and can be washed away with water, thus giving the shampoo its cleansing power.

Surfactants are derived from compounds known as fatty acids. Fatty acids are naturally occurring materials which are found in various plant and animal sources. The materials used most often to make the surfactants used in shampoos are extracted from coconut oil, palm kernel oil, and soy bean oil. Some common primary detergents used in shampoos are ammonium lauryl sulfate, sodium lauryl sulfate, and sodium lauryl ether sulfate.

Foam boosters
In addition to cleansing surfactants, other types of surfactants are added to shampoos to improve the foaming characteristics of the formulation. These materials, called alkanolamides, help increase the amount of foam and the size of the bubbles. Like primary detergents, they are also derived from fatty acids and have both water soluble and oil soluble characteristics. Typical materials include lauramide DEA or cocamide DEA.

Thickeners
To some extent, the alkanolamides that make shampoos foam also make the formulations thicker. However, other materials are also used to increase the viscosity. For example, methylcellulose, derived from plant cellulose, is included in shampoos to make them thicker. Sodium chloride (salt) also can be used to increase shampoo thickness.

Conditioning agents
Some materials are also added to shampoos to offset the sometimes harsh effect of surfactants on hair and fabrics. Typical conditioning agents include polymers, silicones, and quaternary agents. Each of these compounds deposit on the surface of the hair and improve its feel, softness, and combability, while reducing static charge. Shampoos that specifically feature conditioning as a benefit are called 2-in-1 shampoos because they clean and condition hair in the same step. Examples of conditioning agents include guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride which is a polymer, dimethicone which is a silicone, and quatemium 80, a quatemary agent.

Preservatives
Since shampoos are made from water and organic compounds, contamination from bacteria and other microbes is possible. Preservatives are added to prevent such growth. Two of the most common preservatives used in shampoos are DMDM hydantoin and methylparaben.

Modifiers
Other ingredients are added to shampoo formulas to modify specific characteristics. Opacifiers are added to make the formula opaque and give it a pearly look. Materials known as sequestering agents are added to offset the dulling effects of hard water. Acids or bases such as citric acid or sodium hydroxide are added to adjust the pH of a shampoo so the detergents will provide optimal cleaning.

Special additives
One of the primary factors that influence the purchase of a shampoo is its color and odor. To modify these characteristics, manufacturers add fragrance oils and governmentally approved and certified FD&C dyes. Other special additives can also have a similar effect. Natural materials such as botanical extracts, natural oils, proteins, and vitamins all impart special qualities and help sell shampoos. Additives such as zinc pyrithione are included to address the problem of dandruff. Other additives are dyes which can color the hair.

The Manufacturing Process
After a shampoo formula is developed, it is tested to ensure that its qualities will minimally change over time. This type of testing, called stability testing, is primarily used to detect physical changes in such things as color, odor, and thickness. It can
also provide information about other changes, like microbial contamination and performance differences. This testing is done to ensure that the bottle of shampoo that is on the store shelves will perform just like the bottle created in the laboratory.

The manufacturing process can be broken down into two steps. First a large batch of shampoo is made, and then the batch is packaged in individual bottles.

Compounding
  • Large batches of shampoo are made in a designated area of the manufacturing plant. Here workers, known as compounders, follow the formula instructions to make batches that can be 3,000 gal (11,000 1) or more. Raw materials, which are typically provided in drums as large as 55 gal (200 1) or in 50-lb (23-kg) bags, are delivered to the compounding area via forklift trucks. They are poured into the batch tank and thoroughly mixed.
  • Depending on the formula, these batches can be heated and cooled as necessary to help the raw materials combine more quickly. Some raw materials such as water or the primary detergents are pumped and metered directly into the batch tank. Shampoo These materials are added simply by pressing a button on computerized controls. These controls also regulate the mixing speeds and the heating and cooling rates. Depending on the size and type of shampoo, making a 3,000-gal (11,000-1) batch can take anywhere from one to four hours.
Quality control check
  • After all the ingredients are added to the batch, a sample is taken to the Quality Control (QC) lab for testing. Physical characteristics are checked to make sure the batch adheres to the specifications outlined in the formula instructions. The QC group runs tests such as pH determination, viscosity checks, and appearance and odor evaluations. They can also check the amount of detergent that is in the formula and whether there is enough preservative. If the batch is found to be "out of spec," adjustments can be made. For instance, acids or bases can be added to adjust the pH, or salt can be added to modify the viscosity. Colors can also be adjusted by adding more dye.
  • After a batch is approved by QC, it is pumped out of the main batch tank into a holding tank where it can be stored until the filling lines are ready. From the holding tank it gets pumped into the filler, which is made up of a carousel of piston filling heads.
Filling
  • At the start of the filling line, empty bottles are put in a large bin called a hopper. Here, the bottles are physically manipulated until they are correctly oriented and standing upright. They are then moved along a conveyor belt to the filling carousel, which holds the shampoo.
  • The filling carousel is made up of a series of piston filling heads that are calibrated to deliver exactly the correct amount of shampoo into the bottles. As the bottles move through this section of the filling line, they are filled with shampoo.
  • From here the bottles move to the capping machine. Much like the bin that holds the empty bottles, the caps are also put in a hopper and then correctly aligned. As the bottles move by the caps are put on and twisted tight.
  • After the caps are put on, the bottles move to the labeling machines (if necessary). Depending on the type of labels, they can either be stuck on using adhesives or heat pressed. Labels are stuck to the bottles as they pass by.
  • From the labeling area, the bottles move to the boxing area, where they are put into boxes, typically a dozen at a time. These boxes are then stacked onto pallets and hauled away in large trucks to distributors. Production lines like this can move at speeds of about 200 bottles a minute or more.
Quality Control
In addition to the initial checks to make sure the product meets specifications, other quality control checks are made. For example, line inspectors watch the bottles at specific points on the filling line to make sure everything looks right. They notice things like fill levels, label placement, and whether the cap is on correctly. The product is also routinely checked to see if there has been any microbial contamination. This is done by taking a bottle off the filling line and sending it to the QC lab. Here, a small amount of the shampoo product is smeared onto a plate and inoculated with bacteria and other organisms to see if they grow. Additionally, the packaging is also checked to see if it meets specifications. Things such as bottle thickness, appearance, and bottle weight are all checked.



That is a simplified list of things which are included in making that one bottle of shampoo, each one of those steps is an additional cost which must be considered into the price the company sells for.

Now, we can get into more costs. The expense of paying a truck driver to deliver it to a warehouse, then a driver to deliver it to a store. That fee will also include the price of fuel, insurance and such. The store will then need to add another charge in order to make a profit after paying its workers, advertising etc.

The point is, "fees/charges/etc" are added to an item at each step of the way, but as consumers, all we are about is the final cost. In the example you give of military goods; simplified, it is essentially the same as shampoo.
I am a military man who needs ammo for my trusted M16.
Image


The military will purchase the ammo from an arms manufacturer, they will purchase fuel for my vehicle, clothing for me, canteen, web belt, etc. All of these items have a charge when they are made/delivered the same as shampoo. Each step adds a cost.
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evildari
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by evildari »

very nice detailed description of the development of a cosmetic product - if you like to know how costs for (usually military) goods are calculated or rather regulated in the US for puplic purchases- check this out:
http://farsite.hill.af.mil/
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
LCcmdr
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Re: Industrial/Civilian Goods

Post by LCcmdr »

Superb conversation!
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