Missed Product Transfer

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Anthropoid
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Posts: 416
Joined: Dec 10 2012
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Missed Product Transfer

Post by Anthropoid »

Germany 1936 Campaign. Year is Feb 1938. I have 90-day trade deals to build up petrol, food, wood from many different countries and rubber from a few. I have 90day deals for rubber, wood and petro with Netherlands and her empire. She is missing her rubber shipments.

Other than prolonging how long she has to provide the rubber, and probably causing the algorithms controlling Netherlands situation to "look" for ways to get more rubber, does this have ANY possible impact on game play? Does it even extend the trade deal (so that they fulfill transfer of the full amount of commodity originally agreed to)?

Or does the "AI" just get a "you can breach your trade deals with no consequences" free card?

It would be neat if a computer opponent (CO) nation missing product transfers had some clear diplomatic or geopolitical effects, which might include:
1. Lowering their treaty integrty.
2. Leading to alternative algorithms for the CO in question to try to meet its treaty obligations.
3. Internal political dissent, perhaps even unrest or something along those lines. MAYBE even a civil war.
4. Change in aistance that might lead to something like, an impromptu attack on an apparently "easy" target to gain resources.
5. Offers by the CO to delay the trade deal or to compensate the value in some other way.
6. Repeated PLEAS to allow the CO to delay or change the deal, which if agreed to by the human player would have a dramatic positive impact on relations, but if rejected might lead to
7. Breaking the deal = dramatic uptick in Cassus Belli.

Now obviously the other edge of the sword on all of this is that computer opponents are as dumb as a box of calculators, so writing the algorithms to TRY to prevent such a system from being exploitable wouldn't be easy.
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Uriens
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Re: Missed Product Transfer

Post by Uriens »

I noticed this too on shattered world scenario as well. Random countries with no rubber production apparently make deals to SELL rubber and then miss shipments.
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Anthropoid
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Re: Missed Product Transfer

Post by Anthropoid »

I haven't actually tried to do deals that a computer controlled country couldn't possible meet. In this case, I believe it is something like 5,000 rubber (maybe only 1500) per day for 90 days. Netherlands itself produces zilch but the colonies produce quite a bit I believe; plenty relative to the deal I cut at the outset, and they did meet their obligations for at least a while. Why they are now unable to meet commitment now I'm not sure.

Anyway, it just seems like a part of the game where some incremental "better diplomacy" could be edged in. Trying to tackle a full-scale "Diplomacy Expansion" would probably be trying to take too big a bite all at once. But, I know based on my own programming experience, making small changes and testing the heck out of them, then adding another layer and rinse and repeat is the way to go.

I always feel uncomfortable asking developers about their source code; I can totally understand keeping it as completely under wraps as possible.

But on the other hand, I often wish that, at least small portions of the source code, perhaps some variable names or interim function names, maybe even some pseudo-code outlines showing the architecture for certain portions of the code: just enough so that contributors might be able to offer draft source code to introduce new functionality. I know I'd be keen to try to help out in that regard.

As I've said I'm still just an apprentice, but as my general understanding of how the game software work flow operates in general has increased, I've been increasingly puzzled that more studios do not explore this sort of model. As an example, I'd refer to Jagged Alliance 2, a game for which the entire code base was made open source within a few years of the game being commercially released. In that case, the manager of the publisher who owned the IP made some very bad management decisions which drove the studio out of business. I don't know the details of how/why it was decided to release the source code, but the general sense I get is: there was already quite an active modding community for the game who operated as modders generally do, with files external to the .exe. I suspect that one of the developers made an semi-unauthorized decision to "save the game" from abandonware status (and no I'm NOT trying to suggest that Supreme Ruler is in ANY danger of this, it is just a good example of a popular game where the source code was shared). In this case, it was a decision that didn't stand to harm anyone really as the IP owners were going out of business and the developers who wrote the code probably didn't even get fully paid in the end. The IP has nonetheless survived and still more games have been made based on the Jagged Alliance brand.

The consequence of this was that: a more or less permanent community of devoted "modders" have kept the Jagged Alliance 2 game going for nearly 20 years now. The visual assets and most of the UI, animations and the like (as well as the overall look and feel and storyline) remain largely unchanged, but as a result of the mods for the game (most notably the version 2.1.13 mod) the game is a much BETTER game today than it ever was when it was still being worked on by its owners.

I really hope this example won't be offensive to anyone, especially the BattleGoats, and my intent is NOT to suggest that "you guys should just give us your source code, cause 'we' could do a better job . . " NOTHING of the sort. You guys have done an amazing job with your game and I will dispute anyone who would claim otherwise. I hope you will continue to make a living off of your creation for as long as you desire and that you never have to deal with any unwanted breaches to your EULA.

Referencing the saga of JA2.1.1.3 is not meant to be a "model" so much as a reference point: what can happen to a game, a niche game without enormous market penetration, when users and modders are given increased access to the inner workings of the software? In the case of JA2.1.13, the degree of access to the inner workings was unprecedented: the ENTIRE code base was released and is now legally open source. But I don't think things have to go that far to reap the benefits of "crowd sourcing" or of "user contributions."

As I mentioned above, even if all we had was (1) knowledge of the actual language in which the games source code is written; (2) pseudo-code outlines describing where/how user created modules might "plug in," that would take things pretty far beyond where modding for the game is right now. This obviously wouldn't save the actual developers from implementing and testing the code, and depending on how many specific identifiers or other conventions within the code were shared, it could well prove to be more work to incorporate user contributions than it would save. But even in that instance, it might provide a rich source of IDEAS for how the game might be "taken to the next level."

ADDIT: after all, it is my understanding (and anyone who knows better please do correct me on this if I'm getting it wrong), that this sort of "modularlized" production arrangement--with "encapsulation" as the technical method for achieving it--is a very big part of why object-oriented program arose in the first place. Not the only reason, but a big one.

The guys writing the algorithms to control the radioisotope generator and electrical system on the LEM did not NEED to have access to the source code for the algorithms that controlled the atmospheric and heating functions. They could simply exchange their function definitions and/or enough pseudo-code that the other team knew how their code needed to articulate with the other teams code . . .
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