Worldwide units need some loving

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Leafgreen
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Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

I am currently researching 21st Century Naval Vessels (year 106), 21st Century Aircraft (year 105), Armor Designs Level IX (year 101), and Smart Target Munitions (year 101) which is the precursor to Tank Tech '02. In my current 1936 game it is the year 2000.

While I gained a very good escort (most likely by accident) FF-401 Yugumo II and a good Interceptor (also probably by accident because it is russian) MiG-29A Fulcrum-A and a lucky break with the IOF-2 that's it. Otherwise I am 50-60 years ahead of the rest of the world technologically and my best units are designs I purchased from them.

Example - M-60A1 Patton from USA and IS-2M Heavy from USSR. Those are both Tank Tech '54 tech, I have since researched Tank Tech '64. Tank Tech '74. Tank Tech '81. Tank Tech '91. And zero unit designs, in fact the best tank design I could have ever researched to date is the Mk. VII heavy. I have satellites in space and ballistic nuclear missiles and my scientists have figured out dark matter, but they can't figure out how to do anything more than put a gun on a cart pulled by a donkey almost. My only AA I can research that can touch mid level planes? The M-42 85mm Towed Gun. That's just an example,air and naval get some okay designs (read junk vs any 'real' country design 20 years earlier) worldwide designs over time. Know how many new tank designs the USA has had since 1905? Even Brazil?

I just researched Improved Fire Control which would give other countries the SA-20 S-400 Triumf and similar types. I get nothing again.

Seriously, why are non-major powers punished so badly for unit designs? I am in the lead, I should have some good units. Even if it's only export versions from the 'real' technology leaders. Why are we punished from 1940-2020 with almost no designs?

I play tiny countries because it's a little harder although not too much once you know the AI systems. But starting a game knowing I won't have **** for unit designs keeps me from starting a game sometimes and definitely makes me frustrated/bored after a decade of playing. And playing an overpowered major country is just boring, but it's either A or B seemingly - 'multiple' never seems to actually mean 'you' almost always. I have to get past the drawing board stage we can see in r/l and into laser and particle beam weapons before it gets better which makes me quit games often.

But really, I have played my current game for 60+ years and I still have junk designs to research. 60. +. Years.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Zuikaku »

Tiny countries have a little problem. Either they are too poor to produce sophisticated weapons systems or their population and industrial base is too limited to do so. "Tiny countries" tend to buy weapons or licences to build them of their own.
There are many designs in unit database that are existing "tiny countries" weapons systems.
The problem with world units on the other hand is... well, you have to made them up. And if you made them up and mix them with real world units, than you get this strange feeling that something is wrong.
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evildari
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by evildari »

and for that reason i made my DTMOD :
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932
Now your pirate-nation can pirate with hightech galleons too!
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

I wouldnt call Brazil a tiny country, i mean with the right investments they should easily be able to design an infantry unit. It's more everyone besides US, Russia and maybe Germany got issues, well there been reports of lack of German designs past WW2 too, so yeah.

Im trying to improve it in my mod, but it is very time consuming to correct the SRU database. It was more wide spread in SR2020. More units and available to more countries. That's why BG brought back combat engineer i guess. Also light infantry is more wide spread then 'release' of SRU. I think those 2 units should be available for everyone (to research) if they are not already.

I think a worldwide accesible unit pool could solve this issue, just need lots of details to work correctly for player and AI. Prolly not feasible for now. Another way would be design your own units, but i feel like AI would get neglected again with such a feature. I mean player wise you could just colonise US or Russia and get all the designs you need. Another creative way, mentioned before, you get techs and (future) orbat designs from the region you annexed, Only problem with this is that politics is being used in techs and you/AI cant delete techs.

Im pretty sure BG is working or documented all these solutions already tho. Solution of worldwide unit pool might even be clooser then i think, since behind the scenes AI is basicly doing that. If you really wanna help you should give feedback which solution you think is best guess,
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

I am guessing editing the worldwide vs multiple vs south America vs northern Europe vs western Europe vs Europe would be a giant pain, for (haha) painfully obvious reasons.

Would it possibly be easier to add older units to a future tech? Planes do well, there are companies producing export versions (for us, read that as worldwide quality) of multiple planes through the decades. Ships.. not really. But for Land units only the infantry get a new design tossed at them once in a while until you get into lasers and such. A long long time to wait.

What if US Design M-113 which comes at Tank Tech '54 or whatever was copied into a new unit called M-113 Export and available worldwide in Tank Tech 91 or whatever? That way smaller countries - today - that might be ruling the world in the game and technological leaders at least aren't left out in the cold for so long. Just look at who uses the T-72, etc today. Long list of users once the units get outdated. I just played for 18 hours doing nothing but focusing on research with zero new designs, and am beyond 21st century techs while still using WWII designs I had to buy, I still can only research a WWI tank.

That really makes me want to stop playing in a game. You have researched a WWI tank design! Congratulations! Next tank unit design in...130 years.
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YoMomma
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

Something similair been suggested before by Nerei i think. Instead of getting T72 export design 40 years later make it worse in the same tech i think he suggested. Im just affraid it will affect game speed. More units mean more calculations generaly. It's worth to test tho. If you keep spotting values the same it shouldnt be a big deal i guess. Thing is where do you end. European countries really doesnt have that much tanks from US, more from Germany and they arent worse then what Germany is using themselves and 40 year old tanks usually get sold to Africa or something.

In my opinion there is still room for improving availabilty of existing units.

Anyway for like 2030 period there is no excuse, there should be more fantasy units, since it's the future. Whole world should have access to every unit type in the end atleast.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

I think I am just griping to gripe honestly.

It's a fantastic game and seriously complex, always new tools and ways to play it to learn. And I know that major changes won't happen this long after release, just minor tweaks which they are great about doing constantly.

And yeah, I could just go grab a mod or three that would fix whatever problem irks me personally, I just like playing vanilla usually. (Fallout or Elder Scrolls and fifty mods don't count!)

Just wanted to toss that in, I've always loved the game and tell my friends it's the ultimate in world domination/strategy, think the devs should get awards and free swag from the playboy mansion for being extremely active and still doing updates in the world of 'alpha' games, I just have personal peeves that I gripe about at times.

I just don't want it to get where Balth logs in and looks at the forums and 'aw fudge, that darn leaf made another rant post again' =)
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YoMomma
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

Your personal issue is pretty small yeah, if you want designs you can just go to any country in the world and they name you the price. The bigger issue is when Vietnam conquer China because of known reasons and then its just waiting for Japan or South Korea to take over cause they dont have any good designs.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

YoMomma wrote: Sep 01 2018 if you want designs you can just go to any country in the world and they name you the price.
Not if they are 50 years behind me in technology.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

Pretty sure that issue is fixed if you start a new game.. All im doing is scrapping research centers it seems.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

YoMomma wrote: Sep 01 2018 Pretty sure that issue is fixed if you start a new game.. All im doing is scrapping research centers it seems.
In my current game the world is still stuck in WWII military technology. US because I keep them that way, USSR because they went all weird on what to research and decided to steer clear of all things military. Europe because I hit them early for industrial goods and released them afterwards.

I just finished Tank Tech '02 5 minutes ago and the best tank design I can research on my own is still WWI. Other stuff, not much better. Please, which country can I buy my designs from and how was availability of unit designs to non-major powers fixed? Wondering if we're on the same forum thread.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

If you wanna play like that, that's your choice. You make a cpl of interesting comments like USSR doesnt know what to do and stay clear of military techs. I also noticed that sometimes.

But let me ask you this, if you could get the export design of Leopard2A6 would you be happy then? I mean im open for suggestions and i like to keep it vanilla as well, but if i can improve the game to bring more balance and better gameplay im open for ideas. In my opinion a fantasy unit is more satisfying but yea i like to know other opinions.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

Would I be happy if I could get the export version of the Leopard 2a6.

Vs a WWI design everybody gets as my ONLY design research choice? Hmm.. let me think...

Not sure 'if I wanna play like that' is a valid excuse either. I'm a player. Sooner or later I always end up ahead of the AI in technological superiority, and it does nothing for me until the 2030s techs or after - since my latest game is a 1936 start that's a LONG time. Sure, in the 1990-2010 area there is that patch of soft/hard unit defense bonus and attack bonus techs, and that patch of ballistic/mlrs range increase bonuses plus then you get resource facility bonuses, some nuclear power bonuses. And the odd goods factory bonus/less resources required tech. But for military you're just S.O.L., but I have yet to see an industrial complex of 6 fusion plants that can stand up to a stack of WWI infantry. There are peaceful improvements, there are military improvements and they balance. If China was still fielding WWI units now as their premier ultimate military unit, I think they would be speaking Russian even if they had quantum mail delivery systems, a GDP/c of 100k, zero taxes and AI robot workers.

I really don't expect to find an upgrade until I research serious Lasers (not basic laser weaponry) for the Crow infantry, and Electro-Magnetic Guns for a tank with 2 combat time. That's a long time to research from WWI stuff, don't you think?

On this planet you need a moderately competent and equipped! military to keep what you have or countries find 'accidental' reasons to take it. Go ask Saddam Hussein how his tech base is doing.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by YoMomma »

If i understand your game correctly Leopard2A6 wouldnt even exist on paper, seeing your game and issues you have, i have a hard time understanding why you dont try evildari's mod. To me that would be a far more interesting AAR. I know issues of WW2, thats why i quit playing that after 1 game 5 years ago.

Unless you got suggestions of existing units that could be more available for countries, that would save alot of time.
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Re: Worldwide units need some loving

Post by Leafgreen »

YoMomma wrote: Sep 01 2018 If i understand your game correctly Leopard2A6 wouldnt even exist on paper, seeing your game and issues you have, i have a hard time understanding why you dont try evildari's mod. To me that would be a far more interesting AAR. I know issues of WW2, thats why i quit playing that after 1 game 5 years ago.

Unless you got suggestions of existing units that could be more available for countries, that would save alot of time.
It surely would exist though, since my technology/military complex level exceeds that. Or an equivalent. Or back to my original post, my scientists can figure out how to build weapon xyz, but not how to put it on a cart pulled by donkeys so it can be fielded.
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