please change hud block flags to old version

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adamc6
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by adamc6 »

Speaking of flags, I know the political sensitivities to the Nazi Flag -- but I see an iron cross flag in a flag file, which is a nice alternative to the modern Black, Red, White stripe German flag....how do I edit which flag is used?

Thanks.
Hannibal
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by Hannibal »

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if someone could make a Nazi flag for use in my game (and any others who may want it).

History is history and Nazi Germany had a swastika on their national flag. I can understand why the game didn't release to the public with a Nazi flag since, as stated, some folks can be deeply disturbed simply by the sight of it.

For my own games, however, I prefer to stick to what is historical (though I can certainly understand the sort of slimy feeling one might experience if playing the Germans and having genuine swastika flags littering the map.)

However, if the modders here feel doing this would be too ... provocative ... I can certainly understand.
nick-bang
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by nick-bang »

I agree completely: How do I get accurate historical German Flag ? If the Soviet flag can be accurate then so should the german: The Soviet regime killed FAR more people .... including pogroms against jews ... than did the German during WW2...

Leaving that aside: then it seems a tiny Tweak to make the game better for thoise who want it ?



EDIT: Nevermind, I found Fistalis old file.
Nerei
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by Nerei »

Well the problem is that someone in Germany has a terrible fear that if someone sees a swastika they will instantly pledge themselves to National Socialism and go out and commit a holocaust somewhere. The USSR on the other hand won the war so that is something to be proud of no matter how many genocides might have happened by accident.


Okay more seriously Germany from what I remember actually has laws against non-educational material containing the swastika despite being as much a divine symbol in Hinduism for millennia and all that. Basically Hitler in school textbook is okay, Hitler plushie not so much no matter how kawaii we make him.
The problem is it was written by someone that regards all that fancy computer stuff as being mere toys and as such any game no matter how educational would be considered a toy. While I suspect the chances of anything happening is pretty much non-existant it is still easier just to comply and let modders solve that problem.

While I completely agree these laws are bluntly put stupid I am also going to replace swastikas on any models I make with a Balkenkreutz for simplicitys sake although I am happy to make alternatives with Swastikas.

Also if you need flags let me know they are very easy to make.
nick-bang
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by nick-bang »

Nerei wrote:Well the problem is that someone in Germany has a terrible fear that if someone sees a swastika they will instantly pledge themselves to National Socialism and go out and commit a holocaust somewhere. The USSR on the other hand won the war so that is something to be proud of no matter how many genocides might have happened by accident.


Okay more seriously Germany from what I remember actually has laws against non-educational material containing the swastika despite being as much a divine symbol in Hinduism for millennia and all that. Basically Hitler in school textbook is okay, Hitler plushie not so much no matter how kawaii we make him.
The problem is it was written by someone that regards all that fancy computer stuff as being mere toys and as such any game no matter how educational would be considered a toy. While I suspect the chances of anything happening is pretty much non-existant it is still easier just to comply and let modders solve that problem.

While I completely agree these laws are bluntly put stupid I am also going to replace swastikas on any models I make with a Balkenkreutz for simplicitys sake although I am happy to make alternatives with Swastikas.

Also if you need flags let me know they are very easy to make.
Actually the law in Germany does NOT forbid the use of the swastika or other WW 2 symbols.

They SPECIFICALLY have exemptions for educational, Humerous AND context like this. This is an INTERPRETATION of which Paradox is the most hysterical .... probably because they are from the maniacly and hysterical political correct country of Sweden.

In other words then its NO problem to have a Swastika in a computer game in Germany as long as it doesnt seek to pay homage to it or do a history revisionism.
Nerei
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by Nerei »

Edit: Reading this again I just want to stress that I do not disagree with you. The law should be like you say and it might even be intended to be that way initially. The problem is it is just too vague. Unfortunately it is unlikely to change as "Germany to repeal anti-nazi law" is just political suicide and a PR nightmare.

It is not just Paradox that sensors their games in Germany. Other games censored includes the wolfenstein series and South Park the Stick of Truth. The entire list is fairly long but those two I find particularly interesting.
I doubt Wolfenstein the new order is doing this to be politically correct. For one they called German law a bit touchy.
In the uncensored version they specifically go out of their way to not just show German soldiers as swastika wearing enemies but also the warcrimes associated with the Third Reich. Camp Belica is fictional but it is a bit too identical to Jasenovac to be coincidental.
From what I understand Wolfenstein the new order is actually the first Wolfenstein game to officially be released in Germany. Activision has published 3 games in the series but apparently they ignored Germany completely.
The way South Park The stick of Truth does it also makes it fairly obvious that it is done under protest and not to be politically correct. I am not a South Park fan but I think claiming it to be politically correct is some of the last things people will do.


You are right in that there are exceptions to §86a but the way it is written is not exactly on the side of the defendant.
§86a imposes a blanket restriction on the usage of symbols of organisations declared unconstitutional by Federal Constitutional court. The NSDAP and thus their symbols feature prominently on that list.
§86 subsection 3 contains exceptions (for both §86 and §86a) and allows for usages that: Further civil enlightenment, avert unconstitutional aims, promote art or science, research or teaching, report about current historical events or similar purposes.
This is more or less a guilty unless proven innocent law. If you cannot prove you are covered by subsection 3 you are guilty.

Germany is also fairly good at enforcing this law. Probably a bit too much even. In 2006 they prosecuted a store for selling anti-national socialism apparel.
There is also the case with Green Party member Claudia Roth had her immunity suspended by the Bundestag on her request after she turned herself in for having worn anti-fascist logos in anti-fascist rallies.
From what I understand such items are now except from the law.
However considering they are willing to prosecute anti-fascist symbols worn during anti-fascist rallies I do not consider games safe at all.

So far it appears that large gaming companies like Bethesda Softworks also consider this law to apply their products and have not challenged it. Considering they are investing resources into making their games obey this law (or in the case with Activision potentially not even releasing their games on the German market) I can only assume they do not consider it a legal battle they can win.
nick-bang
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Re: please change hud block flags to old version

Post by nick-bang »

Come on ... I have been to german Kazerne where it was RESTRICTED military area... and they STILL covered the swastikas.

The fact remains that most software houses cant be bothered to waste time one german sensibilities .... imposed by the Victors of WW2....

So they just delete it

That doesnt mean that its nessecary

Nobody wants to fight the hysteria because no one wants to be seen as fighting for WW2 German symbols... Hence the hysteriacal political correct tiny minority de facto gets umliminted power because no one wants to fight their stupidity...
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