Resource production based on infrastructure spending

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way2co0l
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Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by way2co0l »

So, I wanted to bring up the effect of supply on production for discussion.

The issue I've always found with it is that it's always geared towards the player. We understand that we need to place new facilities in high supply areas. That if there's an area of oil that we want to develop, say deep in Siberia, that we need to plop down some supply depots first in order to speed the construction of those oil fields up as well as increase their actual production amounts considerably.

As far as I'm aware, a lot of progress has been made on getting the AI to construct new facilities, but the AI is not currently able to build it's own supply network through supply depots and the like. Really, the only effective way they have to increase supply is to increase infrastructure spending, and that only really helps in areas which already have some basic supply network setup. All that Russian oil deep in those undeveloped areas of Siberia are never going to be useful as long as they remain in AI hands, because they're never going to develop the supply necessary for any real production.

Now, in the most ideal sense, it'd be great if the AI could be taught how to develop a supply network on its own. But on a realistic note, I imagine that would be a pretty big task and with everything else on the dev's plate, it's just unlikely. But the further back in time we go, the worse the world's supply networks become, and the more pronounced the economic impacts become.

So I'd like to bring up the idea of removing local hex supply from resource production efficiency, and instead connecting it directly to your infrastructure level based on social spending. That simplifies the process and puts the AI on a level playing field with the player. Not only that, but I believe it would help with a lot of the economic balance when your behind the scenes mechanic to improve production when worldwide production is below demand, because resource production within AI territory is more likely to benefit from that effect than it would when so many resources are located in poor supply hexes.

Local hex supply should still be important, but primarily from a military and facility construction speed aspect. But if you're spending enough on your infrastructure social spending to have a 200% rating, that should be the primary factor for your resource production. Local hex supply should be more for the military side of the game IMHO.

I understand that there will likely be some people that don't like the idea because it simplifies the game in general. And I'd agree if there was any real possibility for getting the AI to be able to build as effectively with that mechanic as the player can, but that's unlikely to happen and all the current process does is handicap the AI and cause issues with the world market. I'd rather have it setup so the AI can benefit just as much as the player whenever it's possible to do so than rely on systems the AI can't effectively manage and will continue to handicap them as a result.

It's something I've been thinking about and I think it would be a good idea at this point. Thoughts or ideas?
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Zuikaku
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Zuikaku »

AI is totally oblivious to supply. Supply problems are generaly ignored by AI (just look at stucked units and AI which keeps piling them up in no supply hexes).

I agree that production shoul'd less depend on on map supply and more on infrastructure spending.

Also, there shoul'd be no 0% supply hexes on map to avoid units being permanently stucked. AI shoul'd learn not to path units through these areas or units in 0 supply hexes shoul's only receive limited amounts of fuel in order not to stay stucked there or to decay over the time due to desertion and broken equipment.
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Fistalis »

Zuikaku wrote:
Also, there shoul'd be no 0% supply hexes on map to avoid units being permanently stucked..
Though I'm usually opposed to shortcut quick fixes.. making supply bottom out at 1% seems like a reasonable fix after so many games running into the same issue with this engine. After all even if it's dog sleds or something generally every area can be supplied to some small degree.
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way2co0l
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by way2co0l »

The only real issue with that is the concept that you're not supposed to be able to build new buildings in zero supply areas. It's supposed to force you to use engineers to build in such remote areas. And that's really a great idea in principle, but just doesn't work so well in practice. The player is able to make it work, but the AI never will and huge swaths of territory will forever be inaccessible to them.

Perhaps another alternative to the 1% minimum supply idea is simply to give every unit a bare minimum speed. They move at their normal speed when supplied, but even when out of supply still have this minimum speed so they can eventually get themselves out of whatever area they're in.

I'd accept either option TBH. The idea for 1% supply is probably better when combined with my suggestion for hex resource supply to be based on infrastructure social spending as it will allow the AI to develop resources they otherwise would never be able to get to, and get more production out of them at the same time.

Really, I'm not a big fan of the shortcut fixes either, but I'd rather have an imperfect option that works than a perfect one that doesn't. The economy has always had issues, and the further back in time we go, the worse the supply situation becomes and since the AI can't adequately develop it further, that means that even if you play well into the future when supply should be better, it actually won't be unless it's your territory and you're the one developing it. I think we need to look at these options in order to make the AI economy and military more viable.
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by YoMomma »

In this game the economy is based on the supply economy USA leans on. This leaves issues for low supply regions compared to rl.

Im for whatever as long 70% of Red sphere army isnt stuck in northern siberia going nowhere.

I mean you can also for a part fix it with some rail networks and airbase+supply depot and removing some remote mines. Then your done in 2-3 hours. Issue i find they still find this 2-3 cities in Siberia trying to go there. I doubt simply basing it on infrastucture spending is enough. So leaving them with 1% fuel moving very slowly is prolly best.

Also troops should prefer roads more tho. I think its because they try to encircle more then SR2020, but yeah it leaves some strange issues.
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evildari
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by evildari »

YoMomma wrote: I mean you can also for a part fix it with some rail networks and airbase+supply depot and removing some remote mines. Then your done in 2-3 hours. Issue i find they still find this 2-3 cities in Siberia trying to go there. I doubt simply basing it on infrastucture spending is enough. So leaving them with 1% fuel moving very slowly is prolly best.
very quick fix for making even remote mines usable : just increase the supply level of industrial centers - wont help with building in unsupplied territory but would make existing mines (and gasfields) more usable - costs around 1 minute to edit - and caching time...
after all what are industrial centers : local infrastructure to help/supporting industries !

and 1% minimum supply (you know ol' trade caravans) sounds good too.
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by YoMomma »

Yes, that sounds good and even easier.
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Balthagor »

EVILDARI wrote:...very quick fix for making even remote mines usable : just increase the supply level of industrial centers ...
Modders could experiment with this if they would like.
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evildari
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by evildari »

Balthagor wrote:
EVILDARI wrote:...very quick fix for making even remote mines usable : just increase the supply level of industrial centers ...
Modders could experiment with this if they would like.
and i didnt do that in my big mod :oops:
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by YoMomma »

Balthagor wrote:
EVILDARI wrote:...very quick fix for making even remote mines usable : just increase the supply level of industrial centers ...
Modders could experiment with this if they would like.
We did and it works. You know what also could work? That you guys implement this, so all players have a bigger challenge instead of abusing shortages in war against the ai.
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way2co0l
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by way2co0l »

I don't personally like the idea of increasing supply from industrial centers as it doesn't fully resolve the issue.

I like that hex supply has an effect on combat, and if you implement a minimum supply level to all hexes then I think that might be enough for the AI to function with it without losing its entire army to some area with no supply.

But for resource production, simply increasing supply for industrial centers doesn't necessarily mean that there will be supply in other areas for the AI to develop its resources. More to the point, some resources are produced in cities and not industrial centers, so you'd have to increase those too. But even more it would have an impact on the combat side of things by spreading supply so much as to make the mechanic redundant. You might as well just disable supply altogether with this approach IMHO.

Personally, I still think the best option is to use hex supply for combat, using the minimum supply level for the AI's benefit, while tieing actual resource production to infrastructure social spending level instead of hex supply. That way it can still vary from country to country, but will be more or less up to par regardless of how many of those resources are deep in the wastelands while still leaving the hex supply mechanic for combat purposes.
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Balthagor
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Balthagor »

@YoMomma - As you can see from the post immediately after yours, the opinion on this isn't unanimous. If a mod gets made, we can check it out.
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Fistalis
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Fistalis »

Balthagor wrote:
EVILDARI wrote:...very quick fix for making even remote mines usable : just increase the supply level of industrial centers ...
Modders could experiment with this if they would like.
If i knew of a way to make supply bottom at 1% i'd release the mod asap. :P
But alas either I have forgotten the file that makes the supply model accessible to modders or it's not.. either way.
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way2co0l
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by way2co0l »

I think he was referring to the idea of increasing the supply output of industrial centers. Pretty sure the supply mechanic is something only they could do, but modders could change the variables buildings provide.
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Re: Resource production based on infrastructure spending

Post by Fistalis »

way2co0l wrote:I think he was referring to the idea of increasing the supply output of industrial centers. Pretty sure the supply mechanic is something only they could do, but modders could change the variables buildings provide.
Ya he was.. i was being a passive agressive smart arse :wink:
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