Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

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mrgenie
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Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by mrgenie »

Somehow I find the supplies are terrible!

I have a 100% supply at a military complex with barracks, airfield, supply depot in the middle of the Sahara so units can move through it.

But after 20 tiles distance it's already 0.

Now I could understand the % going down the first few tiles very fast.. but it should go down slower the further you get away..

I see in Europe where there are large populations per tile it goes down less fast.

So I guess you get supplies based on population as well?

Anyway, I build railway tracks, no difference. Like they're not even there. I can roll out tracks everywhere and nothing changes.

Shouldn't railway distribute supplies?

Anyway, I understand the logic: more population = more supplies so in Europe even without supply depots, air fields, etc and no railway at all you still have supplies everywhere just because of the population..
Thus in the Sahara nothing. I understand this quite well.

But just as in the Sahara it's also a problem to conquer Russia. Units get stuck in Siberia by the thousands!
Even supply trucks get stuck!

wouldn't it be possible to say: 100 at the location where you have the airfield, military center, supply depot, barracks
and it goes down maybe very fast to 50%: 10 tiles = 50%
But then 20 tiles = 25%
40 tiles = 10%
60 tiles = still 1 bar left (=5% I assume?)

Also railroads should not have no effect.

Maybe triple the distances above if using railroads?

OR, if this is unwanted..

Like the Trenches and Emplacement when you right click on the map under the "Transportation" options where is also road and railroad
something like "supply depot" in the fashion like the trenches and emplacement? So I don't have to build Airfields, Military complexes all around the map to get my units on the move
we can build an supply depot as a "stand alone" just like the 2 others and it distributes let's say 25% supplies.. thus 40 tiles around it you still have 5% left...

and if using railroads you have still 5% after 80 tiles distance..

Because seriously, my AI just can't handle the none supplies. It's terrible that even my supply trucks get stuck.

I know it's not realistic to have 5% (=1bar) supplies at such great distances from any depot. In the real world you'd run without supplies much sooner.

But if the AI get 90% of my army trapped in Siberia or Sahara.. where there is nothing to conquer anyway!!!

Russia moved their capital for instance towards Afghanistan.

But the AI can't get there either!! It just sends 150 units to get stuck in what used to be Kazakhstan..
and 1000 units it doesn't send to the Russian capital in Afghanistan but straight to Siberia to get ... stuck, useless..

So whatever solution you go for, just get some solution for this problem.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by Zuikaku »

AI also get stucked in Saudi-Arabia, central Africa, Tibet, south America.

Roads and railroads (and few tiles adjecent to them) shoul'd be allways supplied. At least if they are connected to supply source/city.
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way2co0l
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by way2co0l »

I see you talking about a supply depot option so I figured I'd mention there is an actual supply depot building that provides 20% supply per building. They can be built in pretty much any tile type, so industrial centers are valid if you don't want to put them in military complexes. You do have to specifically build the industrial center first though, because if you try to put a supply depot on an empty hex, it will automatically choose the military center but it does not require one. You probably already know this with how long you've been around but I figure I'll mention it just in case.

I'm not really sure I agree with how far you want supplies to travel, but I do think there needs to be an alternative for stranded units. My preference is a severely reduced move speed when you run out of supply.

Edited for additional clarity
Last edited by way2co0l on Jul 09 2018, edited 2 times in total.
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Zuikaku
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by Zuikaku »

way2co0l wrote: Jul 09 2018 I see you talking about a supply depot option so I figured I'd mention there is an actual supply depot building that provides 20% supply per building. You probably already know this with how long you've been around but I figure I'll mention it just in case.

I'm not really sure I agree with how far you want supplies to travel, but I do think there needs to be an alternative for stranded units. My preference is a severely reduced move speed when you run out of supply.
+ organisation and morale penalties.
Please teach AI everything!
mrgenie
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by mrgenie »

well i agree the distanced i mentioned are way insane! that‘s why i offered several options and mentioned i don‘t mind what sllution comes just make sure they don‘t get stuck so easily. Solutions for less morale, slower movement are all fine by me. AI just can‘t handle no supplies so the concept of no supplies fails at the ai jandöibg it wrong. Fix the ai not sending units through areas with 0 supplies is also fine by me, and realistic! no way any one invading russia go all the way up to the north pole bypassing the industrial centers.

so if the ai pathing just avoids the 0 supplies thats fine by me as well
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mrgenie
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by mrgenie »

also i think the mentioned option that if theres a road or railroad a unit should always be able to transport on it. trains dont just stop in the desert because theres no station :)
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SteamSupreme
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by SteamSupreme »

I thought about modding a copy of an airship to have something like 50000 cargo and massive range and setting it as transport so the AI can cross obstacles and can reach all those stranded units in the meantime.

(Don't know if the AI would use them as unit transport, the player could but we know players would not cheat the AI in that way),
way2co0l
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by way2co0l »

SteamSupreme wrote: Jul 09 2018 I thought about modding a copy of an airship to have something like 50000 cargo and massive range and setting it as transport so the AI can cross obstacles and can reach all those stranded units in the meantime.

(Don't know if the AI would use them as unit transport, the player could but we know players would not cheat the AI in that way),
I imagine you could get them to if you adjust the AI Param file for resupply requests to include helicopters which is what I believe the airships are considered.
mrgenie
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by mrgenie »

actually don‘t helicopters already in the real world supply troops?
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way2co0l
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by way2co0l »

In some cases. The question for me is more about how it effects gameplay, and how it would effect helicopters that don't have any actual ability to resupply, so like pretty much all direct combat choppers. I don't know if the param would only call helicopters that had a resupply ability or if it would simply call any helicopter it could find, which really wouldn't solve the issue and could lead to games where all your attack choppers fly out to the middle of nowhere on resupply missions that they can't complete.
SteamSupreme
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by SteamSupreme »

Like with aircraft there might be a way to define a helicopter intended for transport from the attack copters, like transport aircraft are defined differently than bombers and fighters, have to study the game files more, thanks for the info on the AI params I was wondering though, in addition to supply, if the AI might grab a pile of units in the airship and move them somewhere... Ill have to try it and see.
way2co0l
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by way2co0l »

I believe that's something that would need to be coded in, I don't think there's any way for us to split the classes.
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Balthagor
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by Balthagor »

way2co0l wrote: Jul 09 2018 I believe that's something that would need to be coded in, I don't think there's any way for us to split the classes.
That is correct.
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SteamSupreme
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by SteamSupreme »

way2co0l wrote: Jul 09 2018 I believe that's something that would need to be coded in, I don't think there's any way for us to split the classes.
Hmm that is why the concern on the helicopter gunships going on snipe hunt supply runs.

Then the next thing is to go back to the aircraft and make a super supply cheatcraft for the AI, again giving it obscene high range and cargo capacity, and see how that works
mrgenie
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Re: Supplies changed during the 10.1.57 patch?

Post by mrgenie »

Well several very good arguments have been brought up here!

-1) as long as units stay on road/railroad they should just continue movement regardless of supplies levels
I personally think this is a really good one, because indeed trains cross forest, mountain regions, deserts and don't just stop in the middle of nowhere
as for roads we can expect where there are roads private companies will settle down along them for supplies so it's not necessarily needed for AI or player to build state owned depots just to get some basic supplies

-2) AI shouldn't try to conquer regions with no to less supplies. In real world advances are made along populous areas and roads / infrastructure

-3) the resupply regime
ideas have been brought forward for helicopters to include for resupplies as well which I very much like indeed but a lot of coding will have to be done and won't really matter for 1 and 2 mentioned above so should be implemented
on the long term but not like a priority because it means AI already send units to regions with no supplies which don't really make sense.
also I wonder how effective it is. I did build 50 transport planes that have a cargo load of many tons and you expect them to fly and drop parachutes with supplies like even done in WWII to allied troops but the AI
doesn't even seem to know how to use airplanes to do that. So you'd need a whole new programming in the core to have the AI do that properly.

-4) dealing with units once they got stuck, which they shouldn't get if 1, 2 and 3 are implemented
make them moveable but limited speed, less morale, or where ever a unit get stuck fake a minimal supply for it to get out of it.

Personally I think if 1, 2 and 3 are done properly, one could forget about 4. In real world large armies will avoid getting the vast majority of their units getting stuck.
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