Money negative while surplus

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mrgenie
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Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

germany_money1.jpg
The lower left panel tells me I make profit in both surplus / deficit & in trade
The upper keeps telling me I'm losing money

This is not just 1 day.. but keeps (have a saved game)

This was AFTER I conquered China, India, Japan, all at once..

I eventually was able to fix it.. over time as I increased oil output production..

But something tells me then that the numbers being shown are not entirely correct..

surplus + trade = positive?
Then the above treasure should also be positive growth or am I missing something?
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Balthagor
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by Balthagor »

Yes, although trades with other regions are not factored in. Also, if your economy gets extremely large, some of the calculations are adjusted in a way that could create rounding errors, but these should be less than 1% of your economy.

If you'd like, send me the savegame and I"ll take a look. Ticket 22127.
Chris Latour
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mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

germany_money2.jpg
This is a bit later. I waited for the "error" to pop up again.

Everything green for a few days and then all the sudden losing money again on treasury although with over 200 million profit a day I hardly think rounding errors could make those 200 million per day to disappear and turn the treasury into losing money.

anyway, 2 saved games in the mail.

first to the first screenshot and 2nd amail to 2nd screenshot.

I seriously think the differences are too big to be a "rounding" issue.. unless somewhere in the rounding is a mistake.
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mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

one final note: the total amount of profit/loss I make per day doesn't equal the change in treasure at all.

If I loose 200 a day, in treasure I lose a lot more!
If I gain 200 a day, in treasure I can be happy if I gain 10..

So assume the treasure change is correct, it means the user is losing money somewhere without him knowing where or what for.
So either way, it needs to be addressed so the user can actually see where the money is going to.
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way2co0l
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by way2co0l »

Can you rule out nation to nation trades of any sort? Like, not talking about world market trades, but actual trades with other countries. I don't know how you play your game or what settings you use, but it's possible your ministers might be arranging trades with other countries for whatever reason, and that could account for the discrepancies as they don't show up. They probably should, but any trade surplus or deficit accrued through those nation to nation trades won't actually reflect in your balance and is my best guess.
evildari
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by evildari »

Treasury calculation is bugged erm. i meant design-decisioned:
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
d-bassett
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by d-bassett »

After doing some testing with your save you sent in and factoring out the ongoing trades that you have set up with allies(Bulgaria, Italy), it appears that there is a 0.04% difference in money shown versus what you should have in your treasury. I did not check if you had ongoing trades with other regions, or if you are gaining/losing land on a daily basis. The reason for this difference is that floating point numbers are used for these calculations and there are only so many significant digits that they can hold. The reason we use floating point for these calculation instead of a data structure that has a higher number of significant digits is the impact it would have on game performance. The calculation do not only happen once per day, there are many calculations that happen game slice by game slice and the loss of significant digits happen on each calculation, then again when they are summed up to present to the user. As so many calculations are happening in a game as complex as Supreme Ruler reducing the memory overhead on these calculations was a design choice and deemed to be of more importance than 0.04% loss on these calculations. A real world example in Canada we have removed the penny and now round up or down, my coffee that use to cost 1.98 now costs me 2.00 for a 1.00% difference, which to me is still insignificant. In addition to the ongoing trade you have set you also have auto-accept trades set up which may be altering your treasury without you noticing.
evildari wrote: Jul 17 2018 Treasury calculation is bugged erm. i meant design-decisioned:
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170
It cannot be bugged if it was a design choice from the beginning now can it?
way2co0l wrote: Jul 17 2018 Can you rule out nation to nation trades of any sort...
He does have a recurring trade with Italy giving them 11.42M Daily and another with Bulgaria receiving 0.06M Daily.
mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

Actually the 0,4% off is wrong I'm dead sure about it.

I gave back Russia, China, Japan and India and made huge surplus again
Now I conquered them AGAIN and run negative like crazy again although all numbers are plus and green!

Also I watched out to make ONLY trades that GIVE ME money..
So what you're saying on Italy, Bulgary that's true. I make money from them. Not losing money!

Anyway, I played a long time further for testing and I made sure I only make agreements where I make profit in Cash..

So even if these are not shown, with visible only POSITIVE INCOME and invisible only POSITIVE INCOME
just 0.4% rounding error can't make me loose this kind of money!

Anyway, I'm in the process of testing more..

But if you say: gaining/losing land does influence the math..

can't there be a bug that gaining LARGE LANDS like Russia, China, India not calculated properly into the income..
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evildari
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by evildari »

d-bassett wrote: Jul 26 2018
evildari wrote: Jul 17 2018 Treasury calculation is bugged erm. i meant design-decisioned:
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170
It cannot be bugged if it was a design choice from the beginning now can it?
i had to use this term cause of the devs declaring this wrong calculation / not using math, a design decision.
For me it is an error. You can check my example in the link. Just try that with your income statement and you will have real legal issues.
If the treasury gained can get lower although it should be higher, caused by your fuzzy-calculated values which are off by sometimes over 150% of the daily surplus, you cant seriously talk about a sound design-decision.
my mods
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=25932 (even techs and units for everyone - AI will own you too)
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 79&t=29326 (MARSX2)
mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

evildari wrote: Jul 27 2018
d-bassett wrote: Jul 26 2018
evildari wrote: Jul 17 2018 Treasury calculation is bugged erm. i meant design-decisioned:
http://www.bgforums.com/forums/viewtopi ... 72&t=28170
It cannot be bugged if it was a design choice from the beginning now can it?
i had to use this term cause of the devs declaring this wrong calculation / not using math, a design decision.
For me it is an error. You can check my example in the link. Just try that with your income statement and you will have real legal issues.
If the treasury gained can get lower although it should be higher, caused by your fuzzy-calculated values which are off by sometimes over 150% of the daily surplus, you cant seriously talk about a sound design-decision.
2nd that
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mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

I just read your thread.

The argument: "doesn't work well with 1 region" is NOT the case in my game and I notice in my game as well HUGE differences.

0,4% I wouldn't notice! We're talking over 100 Million per day..

Seriously, if a minister in the US, Germany, UK or France would come to the people with:
yeah eh, we're losing 100 Million a day because of rounding error..

So, 36,5 billion just vanish into thin air every year in every country on this planet..

how many countries we have, 200+?

Thus world economy losing over 7 Trillion each year..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

that would mean within 10 years the global world economy be nullified!

I wouldn't call that a 0,4% error..
I would call that a.. GLOBAL CATASTROPHE

and the wrong math is definitely over 100 million per day in 1940!!!!
Look at the wiki how big global economy was in 1940

I'd nullify global economy within 6 months with these calculations..

so, whatever the problem is.. there's definitely something wrong and not just 0,4%
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mrgenie
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by mrgenie »

wrong calculations.png
In this test saved game I have still over 100 countries alive in my game (to show the argument Balt pulled up in another thread the game wasn't meant to run with 1 country doesn't actually apply here)
The dates are 26, 27, 27, 28

27 in the center twice because I here changed the expenses to make sure I still run positive but not much, but thus shouldn't run negative
my trades with any partner I clicked away for quite some time now, unless the offer was just great in my favor: 800 Million for 200 Million.
All trade I ever conduct, because self-sufficient is always give me money for ore, military, etc... thus I always RECEIVE money..
thus again, by trade I can't loose a thing!
The thing is, the values below show the projected income, because any change while on pause will show instantly and thus can't be of the previous day. It's always projected
for the following day obviously.

The numbers below I actually have nice properly readable organized in the preview but when hitting commit all is shifted and it looks stange so I'm adding the code property.

Code: Select all

26 May                      27 May                                  27 May (changing expenses)                 28 May
252.884                     252.947                                 252.947                                             252.871
+149                         +149                                       +9                                                    +8

should make             where is the money?                                                                      -76 Million, thus 84 Million lost!
253.033
I lost 86 Million out of 149, where did it go?
86 on 149 = 57,718% error on the net profit!

But even on 2061 total daily income, 86 million is NOT 0,4% as stated by BG support. That's still 4%
Imagine a government losing 4% per day..

But the real point is, it's the net profit that decides between maintaining a county or not and not the total income/expenses.
If you loose 4% per day, accumulate that leak up over 365 days a year!!!


The second day I tested you can see how bad 57,71% on net profit is, or 4% on daily rounding errors..
From a small surplus of 3 Billion(US Billion) surplus on the household I go to a losing 28 Billion (US billions) per year!

That's a HUGE difference and just not acceptable.

it's hard to play a game where money is leaking by 4% per day!

4% per day..

do the math over a year:
1.04*1,04*1,04... ^365

that's a factor of 1.648.803,29 on a year (International dot and comma, not US)

and 1.648.803,29 is definitely not acceptable.. Thus the math on economy must be improved.
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Balthagor
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by Balthagor »

mrgenie wrote: Jul 26 2018 Actually the 0,4% off is wrong I'm dead sure about it...
Before I read any further or comment any further I must point out that you both missed what Dylan said by a factor of 10.

If you get a treasury of $451,544,000,000 when you should get a treasury of $451,746,400,000, that is a difference of $202,000,000

That is 0.04%

You both dropped a zero.
Chris Latour
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Balthagor
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by Balthagor »

mrgenie wrote: Jul 27 2018 0,4% I wouldn't notice! We're talking over 100 Million per day..
200M is 0.04%, and we're stating that shouldn't get noticed. Or at least not be seen as a critical issue.
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Balthagor
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Re: Money negative while surplus

Post by Balthagor »

mrgenie wrote: Jul 27 2018 it's hard to play a game where money is leaking by 4% per day!
And now this is out by a factor of 100!

It's not 4%, it's not even 0.4%. It's 0.04%

Here's the testing I did with the savegame I was sent.
economy.jpg
Here's your data from above run through the same calculations. You're down to 0.03% now.
economy2.jpg
T-Calc is what I've calculated the treasury "should be".

Here some things to consider about the economy;
  • If you add together 5 values of 488 but with only 1 significant number, you'll get 2000 if truncated, not 2440
  • The income and expense values are what are "expected" to be applied. Lots of things can change during the game day
  • The treasury changes applied at day end are each individual expenses, it's not one lump sump deduction of expenses. Same for income.
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