Rubber supply global

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mrgenie
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Rubber supply global

Post by mrgenie »

I conquered in a test game, or better to say in a test game I kept running on a computer for 3 days and 100% minister control,
half of the world is conquered by my minister (granted I helped him a bit of course in the beginning)
and I noticed after building out ALL of the rubber plantations in the world it wasn't enough even for my country!

Roughly 1/3rd of the demand is supplied.

Artificial rubber no minister/country worldwide builds.

Product self-sufficiency most countries have it disabled

this leads to many strong nations at some point just cripple and break down because they simply don't have the rubber.

The reason why it's so easy to conquer at some point later in game is once again:'minister AI doesn't build up his nation!"

no rubber = no military goods.

so coming back to nation building: this definitely needs to be worked on by BG orrrr
c++ SDK release :)
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Nerei
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Nerei »

Anyone want to tell BG where Rubber Trees or Hevea brasiliensis originates from?
Here is a hint: It is not South East Asia.
Here is another hint: It is in the actual latin name for the tree.

Yes Rubber trees originate from South America. More specifically the Amazon River Basin. Is it not ironic that I cannot grow Hevea brasiliensis in its natural habitat?!

Seriously it is practically impossible to grow rubber trees where rubber trees naturally occur!
Considering the trouble the British Empire went through to get them to grow outside South America this is somewhat ironic.

If you wanted to you could probably turn the majority of the Amazon river basin into one giant rubber plantation. It would be an ecological disaster and in modern times you would probably end up on every environmentalists most wanted list but at least short term it should be possible.


Ultimately though this is only part of the issue. Even if the Amazon river basin becomes suitable for rubber production it will still be a very restrictive distribution of a critical resource.


Personally I would think expanding rubber to cover other "rare" goods with industrial significance might be a solution in spreading a critical resource out over more than a few countries.


Also I agree an SDK would be great even though I would not use it myself

edit: This is the best I can find right away for possible growth areas for Hevea brasiliensis.
Image
I am not sure it is entirely accurate as I know there are also rubber plantations in Côte d’Ivoire but the map does not show that area as suitable but it should be a place to start.
YoMomma
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by YoMomma »

No need to put this in SRGW, same for modern era too, with facilities producing less and less over time, not good.

Altho in modern era you dont get advertisements about 100 year gameplay.
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Nerei
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Nerei »

I think part of the problem with production is that electricity production just cannot keep up with demand over time.

I did a bit of math some time ago when I was considering facility errata for 2020 and I just gave up on power plants.
I kept getting insane results such as:

To represent output the petrochemical power plants around Tokyo bay I need somewhere between 550 and 800 large power plants (assuming 50-75% of maximum theoretical output)

To represent the actual output of some of the largest nuclear power plants such as Kori or Kashiwazaki-Kariwa I needed somewhere around 40-50 large nuclear power plants.

The Russian Surgut-2 would require somewhere around 120 large petrochemical power plants to be accurately represented.

To represent the actual output of gigantic hydro-electric power plants such as Itapu or Three Gorges I need a staggering 180-200(!) large Hydro-electric power plants.


Note all of this is with 100% supply so it is "best case" scenarios.
To fit some of the largest power plants into a single hex (or 2 for the largest hydro-electric plants) we are literally talking about a 750-2500% increase in power plant output.

The numbers might be a bit off as I am writing them from memory.
mrgenie
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by mrgenie »

So back to Rubber, Resources in South America way to few.

Generally, resources + electricity not nearly close to realistic values.

I must say in later games electrify with the power grid updates isn’t a problem in my games. Usually I end up deleting 50-70% of them in late games.

Also if demand goes up too fast, cut on social welfare and dump the GDP as far as you need it
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Anthropoid
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Anthropoid »

Do keep in mind guys, these issues are mostly about game balance, not realism. It would be impossible to represent the strategic resources presented in the game "realistically." Well . . . maybe not impossible, but an enormous headache in programming and database populating for questionable play value.

That said, your observations about how things go out of whack on the long end of the tail are interesting.
Nerei
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Nerei »

But having a single critical resource placed almost solely on the Malay peninsula to me at least is anything but good for game balance. Mess that place up and the world economy simply dies. Conquer it and you can largely starve other economies to death in many starting periods.

I would say it is still not good for game balance when the 2nd blob of industry critical resource is placed deep in the amazon jungle. That is almost 100& certain to require player intervention for it to have any effect.
Not saying everything has to be spread out evenly but having critical resources this clustered can be quite problematic especially in multiplayer.

Personally I think that rubber should be changed to rare materials or something like that and include deposits like Copper, Manganese, Zinc (and in more modern times resources like Aluminium). That would allow far more room for placing resources according to game balance than rubber does as it no matter how we look at it is largely bound to the tropic areas of the planet.
It will also mean that for modern times we will not be dealing with a resource that is largely represented by petrochemicals anyway as most of the world runs on synthetic rubber today which is made from oil.
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Anthropoid
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Anthropoid »

Do the synth rubber facilities not compensate properly as time goes on?
YoMomma
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by YoMomma »

1. AI doesnt build them
2. AI is being changed slowly not to sell at a loss, so China, Japan, US, etc. eventually wont sell rubber for a loss. So you have 95% of the regions with no or not enough rubber in 2023 to import, especially cause AI like to be self sufficient, so does build IG and CG, but its useless as they cant import the rubber.

Suggestion: google rubber export and put tons of extra rubber plants on the map in Asia.

I cant even fix it for my mod, cause resolution for the map editor screw things up for me.

ps i agree electricity is an issue. Not sure if mrgenie means after he build 200 nuclear plants in perfect supply. I always have issues with electricity once i go conquer anything outside US/Europe and so does AI.
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Nerei
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Nerei »

For modern times you can add spots for rubber production in southern India, Sri Lanka, southern China, Côte d’Ivoire and Guatemala.
For 1949 I know Guatemala should also count as the US build rubber plantations there during world war 2 and I suspect the India and Sri Lanka production was established during by the British empire early enough that it should count for 1914. Sri Lanka was one of the first places the British tried to grow rubber trees outside of South America.

Naturally all of these places should have the potential to build rubber plantations.

Also 200 Nuclear power plants?! I ran the PRC for 10 days without doing anything and currently I need 458 of those in perfect supply just to cover my deficit if my math is right. Currently it is 1.56TWh up from the initial 1.3TWh despite the GDP crashing from this deficit (down by around 8% so far).
If you prefer coal I need 777 perfectly supplied coal power plants or just under 130 filled hexes just to cover the initial deficit. 10 days later it is 919 or 153 hexes.
If I go conquer India or the ROK it is just going to get worse as they also have a deficit and playing with loyalty penalties it is just going to get even more fun.

Can I save this? Yes. Can the AI? I think the chance of that happening are fairly small to say the least.
The PRC is an extreme case but ultimately that is the situation the AI will find itself in if it conquers territory and gets damaged facilities, loyalty penalties or just grabs a region that runs with a deficit. Also I do kind of like to not have electricity trade being mandatory as right now for the PRC importing electricity from regions like the US and UK all but is.
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Anthropoid
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Anthropoid »

YoMomma wrote:1. AI doesnt build them
2. AI is being changed slowly not to sell at a loss, so China, Japan, US, etc. eventually wont sell rubber for a loss. So you have 95% of the regions with no or not enough rubber in 2023 to import, especially cause AI like to be self sufficient, so does build IG and CG, but its useless as they cant import the rubber.

Suggestion: google rubber export and put tons of extra rubber plants on the map in Asia.

I cant even fix it for my mod, cause resolution for the map editor screw things up for me.

ps i agree electricity is an issue. Not sure if mrgenie means after he build 200 nuclear plants in perfect supply. I always have issues with electricity once i go conquer anything outside US/Europe and so does AI.
Well it sounds like "teaching" the computer opponent (CO, no such thing as "A.I." so far on planet Earth, much less in a computer game . . .) to build the rubber synths is the trick then. Though the observations about how much power one gets out of a hex full of the best power plants are salient.

I'm guessing the CO still does not build new complexes? That right there is, as far as I am aware, the fundamental flaw in the game.
YoMomma
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by YoMomma »

No the problem right now is AI doesnt see them profitable. Or the CO or whatever YOU wanna call it. And that's fine by me, but they have to fix it one way or the other.

Anyway according to rubber production on google it seems only like 10% of natural rubber production has been added on 2020 maps. Biggest producer Thailand is basicly neglected.
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Anthropoid
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Anthropoid »

"AI doesnt see them profitable" possibly because the electricity costs are so high?

That seems to be a more specific way to say "teach it how." Am I off-base to conclude that that is the overwhelming synthesis?

1. the computer doesn't build rubber synths (possibly because electricity is so scarce/rubber synths cost so much electricity)
2. modern maps lack natural rubber sources.

Correct me if I'm wrong: it is still the case that the computer never builds new complexes?

One has to wonder if it wouldn't be possible to introduce a new type of complex, well two of them: Ghost Industrial and Ghost Military. Fill in essentially every empty hex on every map with one or the other of these. They do not show up on the map, and only the computer opponent can build on them. Once they have an actual facility attached to them, they change into a real thing.

It is hard to imagine why the computer can't just be taught how to build the damn complexes in the first place, but I seem to recall being told more than once that it is simply "impossible" to do with this engine. Well okay, what about a workaround like the above? Give the computer ample hexes he can build in but configure those complexes so that the human cannot use them at all.

I know that, depending on how spaghet older code is, introducing stuff like this can be mind-numbingly difficult so I dont' expect it to happen. But just to offer some ideas.
YoMomma
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by YoMomma »

Anthropoid wrote:"AI doesnt see them profitable" possibly because the electricity costs are so high?
Electricity is part of the problem, but idk. When you think about it that's the biggest flaw. How can production cost exceed selling price when theres a world shortage crippling world economy. The resources needed for synth rubber are very high tho. I might test with those.
Anthropoid wrote: 1. the computer doesn't build rubber synths
2. modern maps lack natural rubber sources.
I didnt play other maps then 2020 for a long time. But i can only imagine the other maps dont have the potential to build natural rubber in those countries, so they have same problem. Im just talking about my own experience idk about other maps. It would not mather much for those maps if AI build synth rubber. I mean its not that the AI understand theres an export opportunity, so they would just build what they need i think.
Anthropoid wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong: it is still the case that the computer never builds new complexes?
idk what you talk about, they always builded new complexes, tons of air production, some land, never naval or missle tho. But for agriculture, timber and petrol i saw them build complexes.
Anthropoid wrote: One has to wonder if it wouldn't be possible to introduce a new type of complex, well two of them: Ghost Industrial and Ghost Military. Fill in essentially every empty hex on every map with one or the other of these. They do not show up on the map, and only the computer opponent can build on them. Once they have an actual facility attached to them, they change into a real thing.
Uhh.. right.... you can also disable the economy.
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Anthropoid
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Re: Rubber supply global

Post by Anthropoid »

Seriously, the computer builds NEW complexes? I always thought it never did that, so it was limited in its industrial expansion to only build facilities in the empty slots in existing complexes.

My memory could be in error, or it could be that it has been fixed in more recent years.
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